Is the Syndicate evil?

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  • Posthumanity
    Member
    • May 2016
    • 194

    #76
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

    But you will never, ever, ever, EVER run out of employees.

    The herd is large.

    If employees ARE fungible and you waste resources on them, you are doing exactly that, WASTING resources and reducing profit, decreasing value. The Venture should be as minimal as possible so that investment creates maximum return. The employees are irrelevant besides their functionality. The product is irrelevant since the actual product is the process as it is the process that allows the Venture to create Quintessence.

    All this emphasis on irrelevant externalities.... Remember the duty to the shareholders to demonstrate maximum results.
    I have thought Syndicate has no shareholders over themselves...? Syndicate is not a simple corporation like Pentex, nor Giovanni dependent on investment of Clan Elders.

    Comment

    • Ramnesis
      Member
      • Nov 2013
      • 1681

      #77
      Originally posted by Ajax View Post

      But you will never, ever, ever, EVER run out of employees.

      The herd is large.

      If employees ARE fungible and you waste resources on them, you are doing exactly that, WASTING resources and reducing profit, decreasing value. The Venture should be as minimal as possible so that investment creates maximum return. The employees are irrelevant besides their functionality. The product is irrelevant since the actual product is the process as it is the process that allows the Venture to create Quintessence.

      All this emphasis on irrelevant externalities.... Remember the duty to the shareholders to demonstrate maximum results.
      Which, as always, assumes that working people do death is the most effective and efficient way to get potential out of them. An employee who dies in 5 years will almost certainly not give you as much Quintessence as an employee who dies in 60. Especially if you are investing time and energy in improving their productivity. Employees who die take every bit of that investment with them.

      Sure the output of seven and a half billion people worked to death is pretty impressive, but its nothing compared to the output of seven and a half billion people with the proper training, planning, and investment in the project.

      Sure, that takes time, but the Syndicate isn't just interested in the output of today, it wants to make sure there is even more tomorrow.


      Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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      • Spacecat
        Member
        • Sep 2016
        • 589

        #78
        Originally posted by Ajax View Post

        But you will never, ever, ever, EVER run out of employees.

        The herd is large.

        If employees ARE fungible and you waste resources on them, you are doing exactly that, WASTING resources and reducing profit, decreasing value. The Venture should be as minimal as possible so that investment creates maximum return. The employees are irrelevant besides their functionality. The product is irrelevant since the actual product is the process as it is the process that allows the Venture to create Quintessence.

        All this emphasis on irrelevant externalities.... Remember the duty to the shareholders to demonstrate maximum results.
        The Syndicate has no shareholders. The highest levels of the Syndicate answered only to Control. Control doesn't care how much quintessence you have. It only cared that you followed its step by step plan for ascension. Control is gone. The Syndicate is no longer controlled by a higher power.

        Primal Ventures can make more quintessence. You don't even need to have employees. If you use the stock market, you need a small initial investment (1 share) for the equivalent of node 2 to 3. You can get as many of these as there are publicly trade-able companies. If you really want to be cheap, you can be your own stock broker. In fact, if you control a big company, you are better off making sure your employees are at the peak of their game because each small business you sell to regularly (establish a contract with) can be the equivalent of node 1, each medium business a node 2, and larger ones node 3. Each small business you buy from can be the equivalent of node 1, each medium business a node 2, and larger ones node 3. Even bigger businesses you deal with provide more quintessence. You want to buy from and sell to the most businesses possible and this won't happen when some of your sales people keeps getting sick, or you suffer delays or quality loss to your product due to employees being less than they can be.

        The herd is large but not infinite. Your recruitment capability is also limited. Your human resources are contested by the other members of the Technocracy as well as the other powers that be in the world of darkness. These other powers will also pounce on parts of your organization that grow too weak. You do not want entire sections of your organization to be pirated because they can get a better, safer deal elsewhere.

        None of what you say seems supported by any of the books.
        Last edited by Spacecat; 04-04-2017, 10:25 AM.

        Comment

        • Aleph
          Member
          • Dec 2013
          • 2848

          #79
          Originally posted by Spacecat View Post

          Could you propose a system or mechanic for this rote? I haven't quite found one. At this point, I can't compare the Primal Ventures to what you are talking about.

          .
          Well, I don't need to. It's right there in the book.

          1rst: You have the Rote I mentioned. An Uncompromising Commitment to Excellence (Syndicate revised p. 82-83) not only makes your workers work hard as fuck, and with an excelent output, but also gives you 5 points of Quintessence per woker that you literally killed with overwork.

          2nd: Primal Utility 3 "Living Asset Exploitation" allows to :

          Originally posted by Syndicate revised p.80
          harvest Primal Energy from deceased living things, such as specially raised livestock or employees he literally works to death. The Technocrat cannot “drain life” directly, but seizes its power at the moment of death.
          Basically, Verbena/Nephandi like human sacrifice, but in a Technocratically approved way. You can't extract Quintessence of your employes without killing them at this level (I tought this was possible), but you can do it at higher levels (and there's systems for it, 1 Quint per Aggravated level inflicted, as per PU 5, just use a variation of the rote "An Uncompromising Commitment to Excellence" that has PU 5 instead of 3. That way you do not need to kill them to get the juice, albeit you can).
          Last edited by Aleph; 04-04-2017, 08:13 PM.

          Comment

          • Ajax
            Member
            • Nov 2013
            • 2319

            #80
            Originally posted by Spacecat View Post

            The Syndicate has no shareholders. The highest levels of the Syndicate answered only to Control. Control doesn't care how much quintessence you have. It only cared that you followed its step by step plan for ascension. Control is gone. The Syndicate is no longer controlled by a higher power.

            Primal Ventures can make more quintessence. You don't even need to have employees. If you use the stock market, you need a small initial investment (1 share) for the equivalent of node 2 to 3. You can get as many of these as there are publicly trade-able companies. If you really want to be cheap, you can be your own stock broker. In fact, if you control a big company, you are better off making sure your employees are at the peak of their game because each small business you sell to regularly (establish a contract with) can be the equivalent of node 1, each medium business a node 2, and larger ones node 3. Each small business you buy from can be the equivalent of node 1, each medium business a node 2, and larger ones node 3. Even bigger businesses you deal with provide more quintessence. You want to buy from and sell to the most businesses possible and this won't happen when some of your sales people keeps getting sick, or you suffer delays or quality loss to your product due to employees being less than they can be.

            The herd is large but not infinite. Your recruitment capability is also limited. Your human resources are contested by the other members of the Technocracy as well as the other powers that be in the world of darkness. These other powers will also pounce on parts of your organization that grow too weak. You do not want entire sections of your organization to be pirated because they can get a better, safer deal elsewhere.

            None of what you say seems supported by any of the books.
            7+ billion people is more than enough for my infinitely deadly sweatshop and still, oh, I dunno, BILLIONS left over for everyone else to play with. Plus, they keep making more of themselves. Hence "fungible". Hence, the "herd is large". For these purposes, the herd isn't just large, it's nigh infinite.

            If I am running a sweatshop, I HAVE superiors I AM answerable to them. My sweatshop does not equal either the entire Syndicate or the world. If am not surpassing my production quota, I can assue you that there are other Syndicate sweatshop operators that ARE meeting theirs and they are angling for MORE (because who doesn't want MORE). Tearing me down is de jure, particularly, if I don't have what it takes to do what it takes to get the job done. So I have every incentive to do absolutely awful things and pretty much NONE of the things that you are saying will hold me back are worth it. Those are losing strategies. And this is a game. Winners get everything and losers get absolutely fucking nothing (except for, possibly, a seat at a station in their successors sweatshop). I don't have time for a conscience and, honestly, it's probably going to get me killed to have one. Or worse.

            Quintessence is the ONLY thing that matters if this is about the sweatshop Primal Venture. That's why we're even DOING this. Having the biggest piles of Quint leads to being the primary distribution network of Quint, the need for the creation of Devices (et al.) being a very very important matter in the Union (nigh mission critical) means everyone else wants what the Syndicate has. Want Void Ships, VE's? We can get you the Quint from those sweatshop Ventures. Want every MiB to have MirrorShades NWO? We can get you the Quint for that. Need juice for the power cell in your cybernetics, It-X? The Syndicate has you covered. Etc.

            Aside from all that: The problem with the Syndicate vis-a-vis "evil" is that, any and all propoganda aside, the Syndicate IS capitalism and never has been anything else, even when it was the High Guild. There really aren't any other arrows in their quivers. Any other means of resource allocation is pretty much something they are trying to co-opt and capitalize (meaning, "bring it under our umbrella") or they are systems that don't scale to the level they want to work at (mutualism, barter, etc.). And the problems with capitalism is that it does reward selfish behavior. In fact, it does more than that, it actually negatively incentivizes altruistic behavior Which can lead to a fairly unpleasant negative homeostatic feedback loop unless it is really, really constrained. Ideally, Control might do that. The whole system of the Union does do that to a degree by setting the Syndicate into a symbiosis with the other Conventions. And the direction as set by the leaders of the Syndicate proper might check it as well. But, inherently, those checks will break down and you'll end up getting the Syndicate doing BAD BAD things. Like SPD. Like being the festering nest-hole of the Technephandi. Like the Syndicate becoming the ur-Union by trying to co-opt the roles that the other Conventions are supposed to play by having in-house R&D (to offset interdependence with It-X & Progenitors) or by undermining the biggest check on their bad behavior by undermining various sorts of governmental power (from fascism to democracy) with plutocracy.

            Which is kind of funny, because mages are pretty much 100% a potential post-scarcity functional group with relatively low levels of Matter (and Life... but Matter will do just fine) EXCEPT for Quint. And the Syndicate, with Primal Ventures, actually have a way to create enough of that to offset that. (E.g. include the Primal Venture as an integral part of the use of the Quintessence and you have something of an ouroborous.)

            But, really, aside from what they SAY about their alleged goals, they haven't really shown any inclination to make that happen. Not even for themselves.

            Comment

            • Numinous
              Member
              • Oct 2014
              • 236

              #81
              I hate Syndicate. I even more hate all-powerful, nigh-omnipotent uber Syndicate portrayed in revised and M20.

              Even then, I think SPD and Technephandi thing was deliberately created by WW to demonize the Syndicate, the Union, the Capitalism, and by extension, modern industrial and capitalistic civilization itself. They fill 'bad bad amoral capitalistic plutocracy' role along with Pentex.

              Technephandi I could somewhat understand, however SPD is so utterly contrived, incongruous, incompatible crossover that it makes laugh of the Syndicate, the Union, and even Control itself. It makes Union as whole incompetent imbeciles and moronic plaything of Nephandi/Pentex. It also severely undermines core, basic theme, tenet, mood and psyche of MtA in extreme. It shits on universal cosmology of MtA and indirectly vindicate WtA cosmology and belief system are ultimately 'right'. You are wrong, puny humans! Werecreatures are right. Always. Since we are wise and blessed by spirits and humans are petty wrong inferior universe proves it blah blah blah.

              Fundamentally, it literally ruins everything espoused in Mage in and itself.

              In my play and canon, I completely delete SPD. Such vile unnatural ignoble idiotic thing simply does not exist in MtA from the outset. SPD should be in the WtA world, instead of contaminating MtA setting with its stupid deviant toxin.
              Last edited by Numinous; 04-04-2017, 11:04 PM.

              Comment

              • Dataweaver
                Member
                • Nov 2013
                • 7953

                #82
                Personally, I don't delete SPD; I reimagine it by cutting all ties with Werewolf's setting and presenting it as one of the last refuges within the Technocracy for fringe science. No Pentex, no fomorians, no Wyrm Taint; just scientists who try to reconcile the Technocracy's ideals with Etherite-like paradigms.
                Last edited by Dataweaver; 04-04-2017, 11:30 PM.


                Comment

                • Dataweaver
                  Member
                  • Nov 2013
                  • 7953

                  #83
                  On Ajax's recent arguments, they certainly fit the Syndicate as presented in 2e and M20, with the Strong implication that they've been corrupted and represent the worst take on capitalism. I personally prefer a more human Syndicate, with members who cut the profit motive with a healthy dose of ethics and seek long-term profits that help everyone involved over exploitative practices that are good for a quick buck but ultimately destroy the market. Not to say that there aren't bad eggs in the mix; just that you don't have to be a ruthless bastard to succeed in the Syndicate.

                  Call it rose-colored glasses if you like. I still prefer it to the worst-case scenario that Ajax has been pushing.


                  Comment

                  • Spacecat
                    Member
                    • Sep 2016
                    • 589

                    #84
                    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                    7+ billion people is more than enough for my infinitely deadly sweatshop and still, oh, I dunno, BILLIONS left over for everyone else to play with. Plus, they keep making more of themselves. Hence "fungible". Hence, the "herd is large". For these purposes, the herd isn't just large, it's nigh infinite.

                    If I am running a sweatshop, I HAVE superiors I AM answerable to them. My sweatshop does not equal either the entire Syndicate or the world. If am not surpassing my production quota, I can assue you that there are other Syndicate sweatshop operators that ARE meeting theirs and they are angling for MORE (because who doesn't want MORE). Tearing me down is de jure, particularly, if I don't have what it takes to do what it takes to get the job done. So I have every incentive to do absolutely awful things and pretty much NONE of the things that you are saying will hold me back are worth it. Those are losing strategies. And this is a game. Winners get everything and losers get absolutely fucking nothing (except for, possibly, a seat at a station in their successors sweatshop). I don't have time for a conscience and, honestly, it's probably going to get me killed to have one. Or worse.

                    Quintessence is the ONLY thing that matters if this is about the sweatshop Primal Venture. That's why we're even DOING this. Having the biggest piles of Quint leads to being the primary distribution network of Quint, the need for the creation of Devices (et al.) being a very very important matter in the Union (nigh mission critical) means everyone else wants what the Syndicate has. Want Void Ships, VE's? We can get you the Quint from those sweatshop Ventures. Want every MiB to have MirrorShades NWO? We can get you the Quint for that. Need juice for the power cell in your cybernetics, It-X? The Syndicate has you covered. Etc.

                    Aside from all that: The problem with the Syndicate vis-a-vis "evil" is that, any and all propoganda aside, the Syndicate IS capitalism and never has been anything else, even when it was the High Guild. There really aren't any other arrows in their quivers. Any other means of resource allocation is pretty much something they are trying to co-opt and capitalize (meaning, "bring it under our umbrella") or they are systems that don't scale to the level they want to work at (mutualism, barter, etc.). And the problems with capitalism is that it does reward selfish behavior. In fact, it does more than that, it actually negatively incentivizes altruistic behavior Which can lead to a fairly unpleasant negative homeostatic feedback loop unless it is really, really constrained. Ideally, Control might do that. The whole system of the Union does do that to a degree by setting the Syndicate into a symbiosis with the other Conventions. And the direction as set by the leaders of the Syndicate proper might check it as well. But, inherently, those checks will break down and you'll end up getting the Syndicate doing BAD BAD things. Like SPD. Like being the festering nest-hole of the Technephandi. Like the Syndicate becoming the ur-Union by trying to co-opt the roles that the other Conventions are supposed to play by having in-house R&D (to offset interdependence with It-X & Progenitors) or by undermining the biggest check on their bad behavior by undermining various sorts of governmental power (from fascism to democracy) with plutocracy.

                    Which is kind of funny, because mages are pretty much 100% a potential post-scarcity functional group with relatively low levels of Matter (and Life... but Matter will do just fine) EXCEPT for Quint. And the Syndicate, with Primal Ventures, actually have a way to create enough of that to offset that. (E.g. include the Primal Venture as an integral part of the use of the Quintessence and you have something of an ouroborous.)

                    But, really, aside from what they SAY about their alleged goals, they haven't really shown any inclination to make that happen. Not even for themselves.
                    I feel you haven't read any of my arguments. Most everything I've mentioned is in or supported by the books on the topic or a logical extension of such. I could even cite page numbers and tell you how I arrive at these statements if you like.

                    The way I read this, you seem to simply assume they use people in a way the Syndicate book says they don't and in a manner Primal Ventures suggests is not optimal on a scale that seems impossible for the Syndicate or any mage group for an objective that makes no sense and is not supported by anything written about them. You equate them to capitalism when it's explicitly stated that they did not invent capitalism but consider it a tool to be used and discarded.

                    The entire technocracy has access to Primal Utility, and I posit that primal ventures can be used in a manner that creates more quintessence for them than a group of mages of their size will need in a more efficient way than any other method in Mage.

                    We don't even have a system for your supposed sweat shop rote. Again, I don't think of the Syndicate as good guys but this whole sweatshop thing has no basis that I can see in the written material. At this point, I feel I'm only arguing here so that people don't get the wrong impression about the written material.
                    Last edited by Spacecat; 04-05-2017, 12:22 AM.

                    Comment

                    • Dataweaver
                      Member
                      • Nov 2013
                      • 7953

                      #85
                      To be fair, Aleph just posted references to where the Revised Syndicate Book references the exploitation Rote and the Effect on which it is based. They do exist. That doesn't mean everyone uses them; as you say, it takes effort to replace lost workers, so even from a strictly utilitarian point of view it's not clear that subjecting your employees to its full force is the thing to do.

                      And like I said in my last post, I don't buy the notion that the Syndicate must be presented as a worst-case caricature of capitalism. Heck, what @Ajax is describing sounds more like what I'd expect of the Threat Null counterpart to the Syndicate, where their humanity has been stripped away and all that's left is an urge to make money at all costs.


                      Comment

                      • Numinous
                        Member
                        • Oct 2014
                        • 236

                        #86
                        SPD is simply disgusting. It is a hideous blemish of setting. It is an abomination. It is better to be forgotten, to be obliterated from everyone's memory.

                        And while M20 Syndicate is definitely worse than revised one, It is rather doubtful M20 Syndics are indeed a worst-case caricature of corrupted capitalism portrayed in 2e. They are not that bad, not nearly. Hell, in 1st and 2rd, Technocracy was as bad as Vampires, Pentex and Nephandi.

                        Comment

                        • Spacecat
                          Member
                          • Sep 2016
                          • 589

                          #87
                          Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                          Well, I don't need to. It's right there in the book..
                          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                          To be fair, Aleph just posted references to where the Revised Syndicate Book references the exploitation Rote and the Effect on which it is based. They do exist. That doesn't mean everyone uses them; as you say, it takes effort to replace lost workers, so even from a strictly utilitarian point of view it's not clear that subjecting your employees to its full force is the thing to do.

                          And like I said in my last post, I don't buy the notion that the Syndicate must be presented as a worst-case caricature of capitalism. Heck, what @Ajax is describing sounds more like what I'd expect of the Threat Null counterpart to the Syndicate, where their humanity has been stripped away and all that's left is an urge to make money at all costs.
                          Hi, My apologies. I missed these completely and it seems I've been looking at the older book... apparently, I don't have the revised version of the book.
                          Last edited by Spacecat; 04-05-2017, 02:03 AM.

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                          • Spacecat
                            Member
                            • Sep 2016
                            • 589

                            #88
                            Now, a direct comparison.

                            Let's say you, a member of the Syndicate, have a mid-sized business with 250 employees with an annual revenue of $66,000,000. Let's say it has a profit of 5% $3,300,000 annually. ($68750 a week)

                            You can kill 225 employees to gain 1125 quintessence. This will probably screw up your company, kill profits, and get you on the news and sued. Or at least other groups will take advantage...

                            or you can take your $68750 profit in one week and invest using Primal ventures in $20 or less of a share each in a medium businesses to get 6875 quintessence a week in a world where magick is dying. In a world where magick is not dying, this becomes 27500 quintessence. You can do the same thing next week and increase your weekly quintessence gain by the same amount.

                            If your business is stable, you can also use primal ventures so that every business you sell to or buy from (regularly) also gets you 1 quintessence a week in a world where magick is dying or 4 in a world where it isn't.
                            Last edited by Spacecat; 04-05-2017, 03:10 AM.

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                            • Dataweaver
                              Member
                              • Nov 2013
                              • 7953

                              #89
                              An Uncompromising Commitment to Excellence: not every Syndic is going to be able to use this. It requires ten dots worth of Spheres: four in Mind, three in Life, and three in Primal Utility. As a source of Primal Energy, it's inefficient; if your goal is to extract Quintessence from humans by killing them, you're better off reskinning an actual human sacrifice effect in technocratic terms: you'll get twice as much Q per victim. As well, the Uncompromising Commitment rote is unreliable, as each victim gets multiple chances to resist. And again, that's not counting any of the social consequences of employing this rote. Frankly, it's more suitable for use as an emergency measure than as a routine Procedure.

                              A more reliable source of Q is the Node, Juncture, or Primal Venture. As long as you treat them well (i.e., don't try to take too much Primal Energy too quickly), Nodes and Ventures provide an ongoing source of Primal Energy. You also don't need nearly as much Sphere knowledge. The "downside" is that they're not commonplace: Ventures, in particular, need to embody human innovation in a truly exceptional fashion. While rare, this means that investing in Primal Ventures almost by definition involves improving society.


                              Comment

                              • Spacecat
                                Member
                                • Sep 2016
                                • 589

                                #90
                                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                                The "downside" is that they're not commonplace: Ventures, in particular, need to embody human innovation in a truly exceptional fashion. While rare, this means that investing in Primal Ventures almost by definition involves improving society.
                                Sorry, would you mind clarifying this? From my reading of M20, you turn a business into a node and there's no mention of rarity. Is this mentioned in Syndicate revised? Also, the primal ventures chart seems to include organized crime alongside normal businesses.

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