Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Data and Primal Utility

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Data and Primal Utility

    In the NWO Convention Book, we have the following entry:
    Data and Prime
    Data and Prime together is an interesting contradiction, a paradox (and often, a Paradox), and easily the most challenging combination of Influences for an agent. Data is all about digesting everything in palatable, numerical terms. It's about codified information; it's about knowing what you're getting into on the front end. Prime, on the other hand, is still something even the masters don't truly understand. It's about raw, quintessential power that's beyond safe control. This is to say, applications of Data/Prime are highly experimental and prone to disaster. The masters of these arts see the payoffs as worth the risks. Once, these experiments could be performed with relative safety in Horizon, but no longer.

    Prime code is a fickle thing, but when a strand of Prime Energy is properly codified, an Eidolon becomes reprogrammable. In the war for Ascension, conversion is twice as valuable as individual victory. This makes Prime and Data combinations essential for the Union's ultimate success.
    As I understand it, this was written prior to Primal Utility being conceived by the development team. Certainly, it was written prior to Primal Utility being made known to the readers. So how does Data/Primal Utility differ from Data/Prime?

    In the above, Data is contrasted against Prime by saying that Data is all about numbers, whereas Prime is something that resists being enumerated. But to the Syndicate’s way of thinking, Primal Utility is fundamentally about value; and arguably, the whole point of economic systems is to make value understandable by assigning numbers to it: that’s the whole point of money, after all.

    Thoughts?



  • #2
    I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction; economic systems (like money) only imperfectly reflect underlying value. The Syndicate book actually criticises the other conventions for being to rational about it. Hypereconomics and Primal Utility are only constructed approximations of an underlying reality.


    Comment


    • #3
      Utility is really heavily based in the Syndicate paradigm of "value" - It'd be very rare for a NWO Agent to wield it. They generally use Prime and deal with it as a raw energy. Primal Utility is not general to the Technocracy.


      Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

      Comment


      • #4
        True enough. But the NWO doesn’t hold a monopoly on Data the way the Syndicate monopolizes Primal Utility. So look at it from the perspective of a member of the Syndicate who studies both.
        Last edited by Dataweaver; 02-11-2014, 04:06 AM.


        Comment


        • #5
          Philosophical/economic utility is a subjective factor that can be manipulated in objective ways. People determine the value of things and even change their minds. The Syndicate exploits these determinations because they and their fluctuations can be measured with Data. The NWO thinks in terms of information volume; the Syndicate uses numbers to follow trends in utility. It's the subtle difference between the NSA and Google.

          NWO guys do of course believe that actionable intelligence is better than random noise, but for them that's something analysts and expert systems determine. For the Syndicate, it's inherent in the nature of the thing, because of the Convention's radically materialistic, humanist outlook.
          Last edited by Malcolm; 02-27-2014, 05:10 PM.


          Writer, Game Designer, Pro since 99.

          Thoughts at mobunited.com

          Comment


          • #6
            The last paragraph that I quoted in my first post here spoke of using Data in conjunction with Prime to “reprogram” the Eidolon. What sorts of things can you do with this? And is it something that could also be done using Data in conjunction with Primal Utility?


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
              The last paragraph that I quoted in my first post here spoke of using Data in conjunction with Prime to “reprogram” the Eidolon. What sorts of things can you do with this? And is it something that could also be done using Data in conjunction with Primal Utility?
              With Prime 5, you could conceivably control how the target's Effects manifest by changing how free-flowing Quintessence (not the type that can usually be stored) or maybe even use their Eidolon to create your Effects. Adding Data 5 would let you do this at a distance. You cannot directly control an Eidolon this way, because that's really a Spirit thing.


              Writer, Game Designer, Pro since 99.

              Thoughts at mobunited.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Malcolm View Post

                With Prime 5, you could conceivably control how the target's Effects manifest by changing how free-flowing Quintessence (not the type that can usually be stored) or maybe even use their Eidolon to create your Effects. Adding Data 5 would let you do this at a distance. You cannot directly control an Eidolon this way, because that's really a Spirit thing.
                Could you use that to make a talisman using the tarfet's permanent willpower instead of yours?

                Comment


                • #9
                  In the same way that Virtual Adepts can capitalise on Data. Surely members of House Fortunae would have a number of algorithms which would mimic a few of Primal Unity's effects.


                  Keepers of the Wyck: A Chronicle I'm running UPDATE Chapter 31a: Recoil

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

                    Could you use that to make a talisman using the tarfet's permanent willpower instead of yours?
                    Like all things in Mage, it's theoretically possible. But I wouldn't permit it myself, were I the Storyteller in that situation.

                    Prime/Primal Utility 5 could possibly be used to create Willpower out of whole cloth, though. Maybe it would require conjunctional Mind at a sufficiently high level, to be able to generate raw Will, in much the same way one would create a consciousness from whole cloth. (Like how, in the game Undertale, Determination is a substance that can be measured and injected into organisms, and doesn't necessarily require a soul to be present alongside it).

                    Alternatively, you could eschew the Willpower business entirely, and have Prime/Primal Utility be used to craft a limited form of an Eidolon/Avatar. I'm fairly certain you're asking about Willpower in relation to how the Technocratic Union produces Devices without depleting their own Willpower scores. If, however, the Union understands how Arete works enough to understand how they interact with Wonders, they could replicate the process of giving a Wonder an Arete score without "transplanting" it from a living mage, through the medium of Willpower. If these are true, the Union could circumvent the permanent Willpower cost in a Wonder through advanced understanding of Magick/Science itself. But this is all wild speculation.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                      Like all things in Mage, it's theoretically possible. But I wouldn't permit it myself, were I the Storyteller in that situation.

                      Prime/Primal Utility 5 could possibly be used to create Willpower out of whole cloth, though. Maybe it would require conjunctional Mind at a sufficiently high level, to be able to generate raw Will, in much the same way one would create a consciousness from whole cloth. (Like how, in the game Undertale, Determination is a substance that can be measured and injected into organisms, and doesn't necessarily require a soul to be present alongside it).

                      Alternatively, you could eschew the Willpower business entirely, and have Prime/Primal Utility be used to craft a limited form of an Eidolon/Avatar. I'm fairly certain you're asking about Willpower in relation to how the Technocratic Union produces Devices without depleting their own Willpower scores. If, however, the Union understands how Arete works enough to understand how they interact with Wonders, they could replicate the process of giving a Wonder an Arete score without "transplanting" it from a living mage, through the medium of Willpower. If these are true, the Union could circumvent the permanent Willpower cost in a Wonder through advanced understanding of Magick/Science itself. But this is all wild speculation.
                      You truly are a mind reader wizard

                      Thanks camarade. Now, go to room 101

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Saikou View Post
                        In the same way that Virtual Adepts can capitalise on Data. Surely members of House Fortunae would have a number of algorithms which would mimic a few of Primal Unity's effects.
                        That seems like it should be so possible that it doesn't need to stop there.

                        Why wouldn't the Celestial Chorus being doing something like Primal Utility with their congregations and houses of worship? Seems more likely than them indulging in some ersatz-Platonic nonsense about squeezing magic juice out of or squirting it into Platonic forms. In fact, seems like they would have been doing it for a lot longer than the proto-capitalists and pre-industrialists of the High Guild would have been.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X