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How do wonders work in M20?

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  • How do wonders work in M20?

    Hello to all

    I was reading M20 on wonder and background cost and i found this on page 328

    Originally posted by M20;
    • A Wonder with one small power that is, a Wonder worth 1-3 points.
    •• A Wonder with one or two powers, probably with some Quintessence and an Arete of its own. (4-6 points.)
    Okay i said, maybe is there as to not mess a character sheet with 6+ background dots. As many wonders in previous editions went for 7+ dots. So now a 7+ wonder would be represented in a 4 point background. Simple and easy.

    Buuuuut them when i went to the appendix on page 653 i found this

    Originally posted by M20;
    • to ••• Trushades (Trinket)
    Arete N/A, Quintessence N/A, Background Cost 2-6 pts.
    So that got me confuse, aside from the excesive cost for the wonder (1 sphere effect that is not continually running = 2 background cost) what the point of saying it cost • to ••• when i still have to spend 2-6 background points?


  • #2
    Frankly, I think that can be attributed to a combination of changing the Wonder costing (to not be doubled generally), coupled with that not being implemented by whoever was doing the costing (which admittedly has always been somewhat arbitrary).

    You'll have to houserule it. I personally ignore what they say and halve the costs for the listed Wonders (and those from older works) in line with Wonders not costing double anymore. The 'worth X-Y points' might be attributed to some sort of generic point system, like whatever is used for Advantages; not sure.
    Last edited by Quantumboost; 10-20-2015, 12:29 PM.

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    • #3
      More than that, the pointa doesn't match. A 3 dot wonder would cost 6 background points and this table says 7-9. Why is that?

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      • #4
        How the system in M20 works is:

        1) Wonders have at least a background dot rating equal to the highest sphere in the effects they use.
        2) Wonders have at least a background dot rating equal to the amount of effects they can do.
        3) Their Arete is as high as their background dot rating
        5) Optionally, you can have higher Arete by having the wonder use more background dots.
        6) Wonders can hold Quintessence equal to their Arete * 5
        7) You need to spend dots * 5 Quintessence into the wonder on creation, plus 1 Quintessence per roll used for crafting it.

        EDIT
        What gets confusing is the 'Background Cost' in the example wonders, but this does not refer to XP costs, but actual character generation background costs. 2 background points in CG per background dot. Wow, this got me confused even while writing the explaination.

        The XP costs are ((Background Dots - 1) * 3) + 1-3 XP, as listed on the table on page 653 and 328. No idea why they are so..wiggly.
        EDIT

        Yeah..quite frankly the Wonders rules are messy again in regards to wording. The Trushades annoy me as they are labeled a 'trinket', while being clearly described as a device with a triggerable effect, not just an object that got enhanced -by- an effect. Having an item enhanced -by- an effect, and it being triggerable, would require Time 4, which would make it a 4-dot trinket. So heh.
        Last edited by Ambrosia; 10-20-2015, 09:51 AM.


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        • #5
          Ambrosia, I had most of the same doubts as Loki, thanks for the assist!

          I have to say I was hoping that the new book would shed some light on it. Still hoping for some clearer rules on the theme.

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          • #6
            There will be expanded rules for Wonders in the Book of Secrets, so we should get some more options there.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
              What gets confusing is the 'Background Cost' in the example wonders, but this does not refer to XP costs, but actual character generation background costs. 2 background points in CG per background dot.
              So the Wonders background should be noted with the "$" to indicate its two points per dot cost, correct?

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              • #8
                I don't know because the background description doesn't say it requires 2 points per dot. The backgrounds that have the $ say they do in their write up as well. More confusion.

                I think they should cost 2 per point, but then I don't tend to allow characters to begin with wonders, beyond charms, so its not a problem for my games if they don't.
                Last edited by Tuch; 10-22-2015, 12:40 AM.

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                • #9
                  I think the Trushades being Trinkets is meant to keep the things simple. Technically, it's a Device (or, in the case of mystical glasses, a Talisman), but it doesn't have an Arete score. And why should it? It's only purpose is to provide up to three types of level 1 perception Effects. Adding Arete makes things more complicated than it should be. And it's not really sensible for such a dirt-simple Wonder to need Quintessence expenditure either. So it's a Trinket.

                  Except then that sets a bad precedent for new players. The working definition of Trinkets we've been given is that they are items altered by Effects. I'd even buy that the Trushades are Trinkets, by way of the creators enchanting them so that they always show whatever perception Effect they do. But that they can be turned on or off adds moving parts. So the Trinket status doesn't really fit, and sets an example that players will cite later as evidence for why such-and-such item should count as a Trinket instead of a Device or a Talisman. It confuses the issue of what Trinkets are, when it should be straight-forward. We have enough problems with old players confusing them with Charms, we don't need this.

                  ...but at a certain point, practicality sets in. That the Trushades work, regardless of what they're called, and we should just get to playing the game.


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                  • #10
                    Wasn't the system in Forged by Dragon's Fire much clearer? I'll have to dig through my books again, because I'm having this same problem.

                    This formula just seems so messy: ((Background Dots - 1) * 3) + 1-3 XP

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                    • #11
                      Hi,

                      I'm digging this thread to avoid creating a new one, and the topic is the same. I find the rules for Wonders creation very confusing in M20, at least as confusing as it already was in the previous editions, but an other kind of confusing. Well... as you would guess, I'm confused

                      Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                      How the system in M20 works is:

                      1) Wonders have at least a background dot rating equal to the highest sphere in the effects they use.
                      2) Wonders have at least a background dot rating equal to the amount of effects they can do.
                      3) Their Arete is as high as their background dot rating
                      5) Optionally, you can have higher Arete by having the wonder use more background dots.
                      6) Wonders can hold Quintessence equal to their Arete * 5
                      7) You need to spend dots * 5 Quintessence into the wonder on creation, plus 1 Quintessence per roll used for crafting it.

                      From your first two points, I understand that if I want a Forces 4 / Prime 4 effect in my Wonder, it has to be at least a 4-dot background rating Wonder. In the book, it also says that a N-dot Wonder can use up to N different effects. So, the rating of the Wonder is defined by the most powerful effect it can cast, but cas also use other minor effects. Concerning my exemple, it could also cast 3 other effects that the Forces 4 / Prime 4 one. Is that correct ?
                      Or does these dots sum up ? Concerning the same exemple, to store another effect, it costs one other dot for each new effect I want my Wonder to have ?


                      Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                      Yeah..quite frankly the Wonders rules are messy again in regards to wording. The Trushades annoy me as they are labeled a 'trinket', while being clearly described as a device with a triggerable effect, not just an object that got enhanced -by- an effect. Having an item enhanced -by- an effect, and it being triggerable, would require Time 4, which would make it a 4-dot trinket. So heh.
                      Do these trinkets are the same than the Charms and gadgets of the Forged by Dragon's Fire book ? I like that book. It's complete, but may be to difficult So...

                      ... As a final question, I want to ask : What is that Book of Secrets that is mentionned in M20 and HDYDT ? I can not find it and have only the Forged by Dragon's Fire book. Is it a book that will be published in the 20th anniversary edition ? Or is there an old version of it ?

                      Thank you.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NicoTheDuck View Post
                        From your first two points, I understand that if I want a Forces 4 / Prime 4 effect in my Wonder, it has to be at least a 4-dot background rating Wonder. In the book, it also says that a N-dot Wonder can use up to N different effects. So, the rating of the Wonder is defined by the most powerful effect it can cast, but cas also use other minor effects. Concerning my exemple, it could also cast 3 other effects that the Forces 4 / Prime 4 one. Is that correct ?
                        Or does these dots sum up ? Concerning the same exemple, to store another effect, it costs one other dot for each new effect I want my Wonder to have ?
                        I've always interpreted it as Wonder X giving up to X effects each of which have a maximum Sphere level of X. So in your case, the Wonder would have up to four abilities comparable in potency to the Forces 4/Prime 4 effect.

                        Do these trinkets are the same than the Charms and gadgets of the Forged by Dragon's Fire book ? I like that book. It's complete, but may be to difficult So...
                        Nope! They're more akin to the unnamed permanent-Pattern-change-artifacts that were in a sidebar early in FbDF. So things like invisible steel walls and army uniforms made out of spidersilk.

                        ... As a final question, I want to ask : What is that Book of Secrets that is mentionned in M20 and HDYDT ? I can not find it and have only the Forged by Dragon's Fire book. Is it a book that will be published in the 20th anniversary edition ? Or is there an old version of it ?
                        It's yet to be published. According to the most recent Monday Meeting notes, the first draft is currently being put together by the writers.

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                        • #13
                          Ok Thanks !

                          That's strange though. A non-published book is quoted in already published book... That's marketing !

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lord Revan View Post
                            More than that, the pointa doesn't match. A 3 dot wonder would cost 6 background points and this table says 7-9. Why is that?

                            That's XP costs. ((3 background points -1) * 3) + 1-3 XP = 7-9 XP. See the formula above.


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                            • #15
                              So i know i'm necromancing this post, but wonder cost still doesn't make sense to me, i don't know from where the formula came, since i can not found it in the book, it says that a 4 dots wonder is worth between 10-12 freebies points, the wonder background doesn't seems to cost double to purchase and it looks like you if you pour 4 dot of your free backgound dots in a wonder you will end up with a wonder worth 2 dots wich you can raise by pouring an absurd amount of freebie points ?

                              I mean even the example doesn't make sense !

                              each dot in that Background. A three-dot Wonder, for instance,
                              can have up to three different powers, although many
                              three-dot Wonders have only one or two abilities.
                              Chapter Two: Expanded Rules and Options 151
                              Because each Wonder uses Sphere-based Effects, those dots depend upon the Sphere Rank of the object’s most powerful Effect. A Talisman, for instance, that uses a Forces 4 /Prime 4 Effect would be a four-dot Background, with an Arete Trait as high as 4. As an optional rule, a Wonder may have a higher Arete than usual; for one extra Background point, that four-dot Talisman could have an Arete of 5. Generally, Wonders have a capacity of five Quintessence points for each point of Arete. That four-
                              dot Arete 5 Talisman, then, could hold up to 25 Quintessence, and would cost nine freebie or experience points.
                              Why would a 5 dots rating wonder with an extra dots of background would cost 9 experience points ?! accroding to their chart it's not even enough to buy a three dot wonder, and this one need a level 4 arete rating !


                              .

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