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Have you ever used the Werewolf Trinity in your mage game?

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  • #31
    I'm a sucker for Werewolf so I don't ignore their Cosmology, I just have it Mages are rarely wise enough to notice, but they get a rough gist of Dynamism/Stasis/Entropy are dominant spiritual Forces.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Aleph View Post
      If a Maeljin Incarna dies, what impedes the Urge Wyrm to just fart another one?. They didn't seem so hard to replace in the Book of the Wyrm. Almost like they weren't such big shoots. Or it's Steel so cursed that he can't possibly be recreated or replaced were to be destroyed by this mean?.


      A fucking month. And how exactly are you going keep him that much time without him being released by other entities at some point?, do you really think that a Nephandy or some cosmic entity of near unlimited power can't just reach a Horizon Realm? (Steel looses all of his power while lookig his reflection?, because otherwise this course of action seems so doomed that it doesn't have any sense)


      That's just a theory. False, if we go by the spirit hierarchy, or the theory of the Pure Ones that was there in the first/second editions. But if you swear by Revised, then consider this: You can't vanish racism, because racism it's supported by the Consensus, and thus another spirit of racism will appear if you kill the current one. Pure revised metaphysics.

      Plus, Mage fully addresses godlike entities, and you seem to be completely oblivious of such addressing. Because if you werent you would know that they aren't defenselss against magick.
      Because? These are the rituals required to permanently destroy/seal them. As in another one DOESN'T take it's place.

      For example, if you just hate the current Incarnation of Lord Steel. Go stab him in the face until he dies. You become the new Maeljin of Hatred.

      Not a horizon realm. You take that pocket of space and knock it out of the Tellurian. Do not maintain it's links. Do not pass go. It's now effectively unfindable.

      And of course. That's where Mage and Werewolf Conflict. In werewolf, if you kill this guy racism just goes away. The worst racists are now only mildly politically incorrect. Everyone else is perfectly accepting of everyone else. In Mage, the idea of a single individual being the lynchpin to a defining personality trait for a HUGE portion of the human race is ridiculous. The idea that negative personality traits are caused by evil demons rather than just people being people is silly.

      Originally posted by Ajax View Post

      That's a view of Mage that isn't and has never been fully supported by any version of Mage from 1st to 20th Anniversary. There are always have always been things greater than humanity and things that even a fully empowered mage cannot do. There are truths that the Consensus cannot change, no matter how many people can be convinced to believe otherwise. Barring whatever may happen after total mass Ascension. Within those bounds there is a lot of play for the masses to create inertia in one way direction or another. And the possibility to try to channel that inertia in certain directions if one is in the know about the power of belief. There is fair amount of wiggle-room on a particularized individual basis to find ways to bend and circumvent the "rules", but, even then, not the "base code" of the Tellurian.

      Racism as a concept doesn't go away if you kill the big bad spirit of racism. Nor does hate. Nor does ignorance. There are other spirits in his hierarchy who will step up to take his place. Neither Werewolf or Mage is entirely top down or bottom up. As Aleph says, the Consensus doesn't stop believing such a thing as racism exists. There is probaby a momentary bubble where everyone gets a "world-wide moment of clarity" and racism changes just a little bit as the hierarchy struggles to or with the replacement. Mages can't get rid of it either. They can't "starve" the spirit of racism by uncreating it with some massive working. Even a Godlike feat of conjunctional Master level Sphere magic as a Ritual with all the assistants possible working towards the same end could do it. That's reprogramming the whole Consensus. If it were possible, it would have been done. Probably be the Union to get rid of ANY latititude for anything other than version of technomancy. At a certain point, the Ascension War is really a war for hearts and minds. Or it's "leave me alone" to allow me to achieve Ascension in my own way without interference.

      Are there? Or are there just things a fully empowered mage hasn't yet realized they can do?

      That's one of the key problems of the Technocracy. They identify certain things they think should be good. And then they exclude the possibility of all else, in order to solidify and simplify magic down to something even a sleeper can understand. Sacrificing untold possibility for common utility.

      The rulebook even says that you should keep to the feeling of it, rather than the rules. Given that the spheres are a recent invention, and are treated more like a useful rubric of knowledge rather than an actual concrete accurate representation of how reality works...

      And no. The ritual detailing lord Steeles destruction outright says all but the worst racists, homophobes, etc stop being so. And even the worst ones disposition is much improved. Permanently.

      And considering the union has a procedure that turns anything other than Enlightened Science vulgar, no matter how coincidental it may be elsewhere. And all enlightened science coincidental, no matter how much the sleepers disbelieve... And as a side effect also turns all non-mage supernaturals into thaumavores who require a point of quintessence every day or else they sicken and die...

      And yet they don't use it except rarely. For... whatever reason.

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      • #33
        Not a horizon realm. You take that pocket of space and knock it out of the Tellurian. Do not maintain it's links. Do not pass go. It's now effectively unfindable.
        "Outside of the Tellurian" it's a funny way to say "to the Deep Umbra". Guess where's Malfeas according to Mage Cosmology: In the Deep Umbra. Not unreachable at all. Plus, if you know exactly what to search, Magick can find anything anywhere.

        Are there? Or are there just things a fully empowered mage hasn't yet realized they can do?
        That's something that nobody knows. It's up to the Storyteller if the world has basis appart from the human will (and Prime). Most Mage books defend the posibility of impossibilities enough so you can use them in your games.

        Besides, you're refusing to tackle the issue of Incarnas having powers that can rival with True Magick. Since you can't prove that they don't, you can't dissuade me of, say, saying that Steel has protected his mask with a ward that prevents it to be taken away/attacked with Corr (I would protect my mask if I know it's such a heavy weakness).
        And considering the union has a procedure that turns anything other than Enlightened Science vulgar, no matter how coincidental it may be elsewhere. And all enlightened science coincidental, no matter how much the sleepers disbelieve... And as a side effect also turns all non-mage supernaturals into thaumavores who require a point of quintessence every day or else they sicken and die...

        And yet they don't use it except rarely. For... whatever reason.
        They don't use it because the Procedure itself it's Vulgar...and because Paradox can erode such effects, or impede to make them Permanent, or prevent you to use them in large areas. They preffer to use them in the Umbra, there, the consequences are usualy lighter.

        It only turns some non-mage into thaumnivores...other mysteriously resist the effect. Surely because some uncoscious nonsense that has never been proved by any Mind Master.

        The rulebook even says that you should keep to the feeling of it, rather than the rules. Given that the spheres are a recent invention, and are treated more like a useful rubric of knowledge rather than an actual concrete accurate representation of how reality works...
        It's funny how you interpret this as meaning that mages can do anything they want without limits, and not as, sometimes, you ain't going to be able to do what the rules state that you can do...because sometimes, "the feeling of it" it's that a given magick should cause a far greater Paradox than what the rules indicate (like, say, trying to overrule the Consensus with magick), or that a given spell should be very hard to do if powerful mystical influences push against it.
        Last edited by Aleph; 06-07-2016, 10:52 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post

          Because? These are the rituals required to permanently destroy/seal them. As in another one DOESN'T take it's place.

          For example, if you just hate the current Incarnation of Lord Steel. Go stab him in the face until he dies. You become the new Maeljin of Hatred.

          Not a horizon realm. You take that pocket of space and knock it out of the Tellurian. Do not maintain it's links. Do not pass go. It's now effectively unfindable.

          And of course. That's where Mage and Werewolf Conflict. In werewolf, if you kill this guy racism just goes away. The worst racists are now only mildly politically incorrect. Everyone else is perfectly accepting of everyone else. In Mage, the idea of a single individual being the lynchpin to a defining personality trait for a HUGE portion of the human race is ridiculous. The idea that negative personality traits are caused by evil demons rather than just people being people is silly.
          It doesn't go away. It is significantly reduced in intensity for a period of time ranging from one to ten years until another Maeljin takes its place. The normal workings of Incarnae are somewhat different from other spirits, as killing one only prompts a Celestine to promote another into its place. You have to kill a Celestine to actually take out a big concept, and Celestines are so huge that their avatars need avatars to speak to mortal beings.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Enginseer-42 View Post

            Because? These are the rituals required to permanently destroy/seal them. As in another one DOESN'T take it's place.

            For example, if you just hate the current Incarnation of Lord Steel. Go stab him in the face until he dies. You become the new Maeljin of Hatred.

            Not a horizon realm. You take that pocket of space and knock it out of the Tellurian. Do not maintain it's links. Do not pass go. It's now effectively unfindable.

            And of course. That's where Mage and Werewolf Conflict. In werewolf, if you kill this guy racism just goes away. The worst racists are now only mildly politically incorrect. Everyone else is perfectly accepting of everyone else. In Mage, the idea of a single individual being the lynchpin to a defining personality trait for a HUGE portion of the human race is ridiculous. The idea that negative personality traits are caused by evil demons rather than just people being people is silly.




            Are there? Or are there just things a fully empowered mage hasn't yet realized they can do?

            That's one of the key problems of the Technocracy. They identify certain things they think should be good. And then they exclude the possibility of all else, in order to solidify and simplify magic down to something even a sleeper can understand. Sacrificing untold possibility for common utility.

            The rulebook even says that you should keep to the feeling of it, rather than the rules. Given that the spheres are a recent invention, and are treated more like a useful rubric of knowledge rather than an actual concrete accurate representation of how reality works...

            And no. The ritual detailing lord Steeles destruction outright says all but the worst racists, homophobes, etc stop being so. And even the worst ones disposition is much improved. Permanently.

            And considering the union has a procedure that turns anything other than Enlightened Science vulgar, no matter how coincidental it may be elsewhere. And all enlightened science coincidental, no matter how much the sleepers disbelieve... And as a side effect also turns all non-mage supernaturals into thaumavores who require a point of quintessence every day or else they sicken and die...

            And yet they don't use it except rarely. For... whatever reason.
            Yes. There are. Read M20 where they are explicitly set out. Which is just a compilation and organization of relevant material that has been addressed hodge-podge previously. So, yeah, since the get-go there are things that mages can't do. There are some absolutes: They can't make there not be such a thing as magic. They cannot unmake the Umbrae (though their permeability can be squishy). There are some default settings that can change, but in the absence of them changing them, there are set things. They really can't get rid of baseline up-ness and down-ness. Thsey can't "unmake" a status like that of "vampirism" or "death", etc. (Sure it MAY be possible to make an indvidial werewolf or vampire here and there stop being that, maybe, but, aside from killing off all the relevant nasties, it's not a holistic phenomenon. Sure, Voormas may have tried "to get rid of death" but he was really just adding the state of "being dead" to the set of "being alive" by merging the edges of the Low Umbra and the Skinlands in a way consistent with their respective "squishy-ness".)

            However or whatever sets these up, it's probably not something that can be accomplished by effective Consensus leadership for whatever reason. Perhaps the Tellurian believes in itself in a fundamental way that embraces and enfolds the Consensus of Humanity. Or whatever. But there it is.

            So what if you get rid of "Hate" from a WEREWOLF perspective? Then something else will take it's place. I don't have to HATE you to treat you like shit. I can be DISGUSTED by you. Or PITY your. Or feel DESPAIR. Or just feel enough GREED to want to take all of your stuff until you are miserable unto death. Hate as the Hate that Steel represents is gone. Other negative things will flow in around the edges. The Universe may be fractionally better for it, but that doesn't make "it all better". There is a lot of negativity out there, and it doesn't really matter what the motivation is if the end result is the same.

            This just seems like the weirdest argument position to come from. 1. Werewolf is RIGHT. Lord Steel IS Hate and what Werewolf says about defeating him is uttery 100% right in every way. 2. Werewolf is WRONG and Mage is RIGHT because Mages have supreme power (wait, didn't Werewolf's position on the importance of Lord Steel trump EVERYTHING else... oh well....) and, since they have some apparently effective workarounds, then Mages can accomplish the nearly-impossible utterly epic in Werewolf with ease. There are some logical fallacies buried in changing perspectives to armor your arguments against all comers.

            If you want mages to be this omnipotent, effectively from Arete 2 on, that's your call. It's your game. Golden Rule, etc. etc. To my mind, and probably to most, it's not a very interesting game. When characters have unlimited power and there is effectively no opposition to their level of creative bullshit as permitted by their ST, it's just creative mental masturbation and will almost certainly end up full of sound and fury, but, ultimately, signify nothing.

            As for the Spheres and whether they are an "in game thing" or a reflection of the underlying "laws of how things work".... well that's been argued and hashed and rehashed in post after post. It's an open question. But, to my mind, it definitely seems more like it's the later than the former, particularly in how the game is set up. (With everyone using them, including Orphans who don't know ANYTHING about some agreement between some weird dudes several centuries ago...) It's not just how Mages think about things affecting how they do things, it's a reflection of how they do things reflecting the way things are (now.... not that they always were thus.... )
            Last edited by Ajax; 06-09-2016, 07:56 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
              rit world more than Mages, but they are actually quite weak on major metaphysical philosophies. Attributing all their problems to the Wyrm is simply their way of dealing with the Problem of Evil.

              The game was originally written with the intent that all of them crossovered to one another. That quickly fell apart as 1) there were not enough common mechanics to make it work, 2) as each line developed, little bits of inconsistent canon were introduced especially as the first games had many more supplements published before some of the game lines had even begun, and 3) the various line developers became very protective of their own line and couldn't work well with others to tell a single setting. There were too many ideas (and egos) that worked against each other. So before too long, the line changed from crossover is great and allowed, to none of the games crossover and canon in one game shouldn't be taken into the next line. That way each developer could do whatever they liked and ignore what another developer was doing. Well, it is at least one way of dealing with office politics.
              I swear, I almost thought you were talking about the Traditions and not the World of Darkness game lines.

              Oh wait...

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              • #37
                Please don't necro threads to pick a fight with a more than 2 year old post. It's bad forum etiquette for necroing and a rules violation for the antagonistic post, don't do it again.


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