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  • #31
    Yeah, I agree with that.

    One could add that one of the reasons Marauders are so scary it's that they can suddenly sidestep those difficulties. They can (sometimes, at the storyteller's discretion) cast with more Spheres than normal, ignore huge amounts of Paradox, join in groups with seemingly contradictory agendas or Paradigms, and use really bizarre Focus that defy common sense.

    They're crazy, but they're also controled by magical forces that even mages can't truly understand which can make them act in unpredictable ways and maybe even break (or abuse) some of the rules. But I think that this loses it's appeal if it's taken for granted.
    Marauders are as powerful as weak. Their madness gives them strenght, but also limits and defines what they can and will do. They may be tools of their Avatars, but that doesn't mean that they all follow a common agenda...or, if they do, it's so metaphysical and big that it doesn't imply teamwork as we normally understand it (without being agains't it), and so arcane that can't be easily predicted by average mages.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
      So, I was looking at Sorcerer (Revised) the other day and, on page 31, it mentioned that the Technocracy depended on its Extraordinary Scientists (Sorcerers) to do most of the grunt work because it had only hundreds of Enlightened members. If there are only hundreds of Awakened members of the Technocracy, I would suggest that there are only thousands of Mages across the world and that mages are one-in-a-million. I think that the vast majority of the 'magic' that occurs in WoD is Numina. I do not mind, however, Numina practitioners being one out of five hundred (0.2%) of the population.
      In ascension general Aleph managed to assemble 3000-4000 technocrats for war,and there were still more who didn't answered the call.

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      • #33
        Page 78 of ascension


        "Aleph commands 4000 enlightened technocrats, 8000 extraordinary citizens and 20000 sleeper soldiers. He has no other reserves. This is an all-or-nothing fight to which he commits every technocrat that he can muster"

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        • #34
          I think Marauder's % of the population should be very low 1% or 0.1%, so that the setting actually makes sense.

          Also Re: Malcom's numbers, I think Marauders and Nephandi are assumed to be jointly distributed through the rest of the Mage population and not an isolated faction.

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          • #35
            1:150,000 seems most reasonable. Because that is the figure authors confirmed in books. Explicitly.

            It is also concordant with figures given in revised books.

            And this should not be equated with "the world is malleable". After all, most of Mages are relatively "weak" ones. Below Arete 3. Arete 4 to 5 at the most, I will say. These mages could not readily impose their Will on reality, let alone command or warp it.

            Still, I wonder why the Technocracy could only manage to muster 3,000 to 4,000 mages and twice sorcerers. Even if we apply 1:200,000 or even 1:250,000 in place of 1:150,000 there should be a lot more, probably tens of thousands of technocrat instead of a paltry thousands.
            Last edited by Posthumanity; 04-05-2017, 09:31 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Posthumanity View Post
              Still, I wonder why the Technocracy could only manage to muster 3,000 to 4,000 mages and twice sorcerers. Even if we apply 1:200,000 or even 1:250,000 in place of 1:150,000 there should be a lot more, probably tens of thousands of technocrat instead of a paltry thousands.
              How does this number compare with the original idea that mages were around 1 in a million? (or something thereabouts... before it was changed to 1:150,000). Also, what year did this come out? Maybe I can extrapolate the numbers using that year's world population.
              Last edited by Spacecat; 04-05-2017, 10:23 AM.

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              • #37
                With around 7 000 000 000 of people in the world, and thus 7000 Mages, the Technocracy would have arround half of the lot. It seems coherent with that number. Twice Sorcerers work only if the original number doesn't include Sorcerers

                1 : 1000 000 may sound impressive if every mage enlists to the war, but realistically you can't have the amount of subsects, and groups within the Traditions and the Technocracy with such numbers. Think about the amount of subgroups that the Order of Hermes have, with little more 300 mages. The Criamon are supposed to be near extint with "only" 30 mages, but that's almost 1/10 of the Tradition by these numbers! . With this number each cabal it's important, and you can't loose one mage.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                  With around 7 000 000 000 of people in the world, and thus 7000 Mages, the Technocracy would have arround half of the lot. It seems coherent with that number. Twice Sorcerers work only if the original number doesn't include Sorcerers

                  The Technocracy wouldn't even have half of that mage population. There's more to the Mage society than the Tecnocratic Union and the Traditions. Sure, Orphans are rare and the crafts are all nearly dead (at least that's what everyone else thinks), but then there's als Nephandi (who could be mixed into the other groups, partly), a hand full of Marauders and maybe some other unaffiliated. Even though most factions seem more or less dead, it's because there is this really low number of awakened in the first place.
                  Mages are rare. While Sorcerers aren't. If you think about it, every sleeper who has some kind of knowledge based around electronics or computers or whatever could be seen as a very low level Sorcerer (with a technocratic paradigm).

                  Also, I think the rulebooks state quite clear, these are numbers as seen by factions! These are not the real, hard, total numbers but those that some mage or technocrat researched. There's surely some things he could have overlooked.

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                  • #39
                    So these are the ballpark numbers I generally use (pulled from a WoD census file that was put together years ago, when the world population was about 6.5 billion). Since exact population numbers never really matter to a chronicle, it's worked well enough to give me starting number ideas whenever they are necessary.

                    MAGES- 11,000ish (1 for 590,000 mortals) (There are two conflicting accounts. 1 in a million in a few older sources, and 1 in 150,000 mortals in Fallen Tower: Las Vegas. The first number doesn't leave enough mages for all their societies. The second, newer number incorporates all the sorcerers as well, which outnumber mages 3 to 1.)

                    I think that strikes a decent balance between the numbers of Mages needed for their various organizations and the idea of them being at least a bit rare in general. Calculating from 7 billion people, the Mage population works out to just under 12,000. And since I think technocrats account for about 30% of the Mage population, that would give them around 3600 true Mages to call on (matching the numbers given in Ascension).


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                    • #40
                      Las Vegas only includes special snowflake sorcerers powerful enough to be considered as willworkers. So Las Vegas counts very few sorcerers as "mage".

                      And still, 1 for a million or 1 for 590,000 makes no sense to me. It is too few and simply not enough to exert global influence, alter and impose reality and hell, conduct and sustain Ascension War properly. Both the Tradition and the Technocracy, at least post-revised and M20 ones, are truly colossal organizations. And 7,000 or 11,000 Mages in the entire world is...improbable, disjointed, to say the least. In this regard, I completely agree with Ajax.

                      For the same reason, I practically ignore 1 to 100,000 or more vampire rate. 1 to 50,000 or less is much more probable. In the same context, I also discard 1 to 500,000 shapeshifter count and instead use 1 to 200,000 or less.

                      If you prefer fewer number, you can still use 1 to 200,000 or 1 to 250,000 figure given from other authors.

                      http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...the-traditions
                      Last edited by Posthumanity; 04-05-2017, 09:58 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                        So these are the ballpark numbers I generally use (pulled from a WoD census file that was put together years ago, when the world population was about 6.5 billion). Since exact population numbers never really matter to a chronicle, it's worked well enough to give me starting number ideas whenever they are necessary.

                        MAGES- 11,000ish (1 for 590,000 mortals) (There are two conflicting accounts. 1 in a million in a few older sources, and 1 in 150,000 mortals in Fallen Tower: Las Vegas. The first number doesn't leave enough mages for all their societies. The second, newer number incorporates all the sorcerers as well, which outnumber mages 3 to 1.)

                        I think that strikes a decent balance between the numbers of Mages needed for their various organizations and the idea of them being at least a bit rare in general. Calculating from 7 billion people, the Mage population works out to just under 12,000. And since I think technocrats account for about 30% of the Mage population, that would give them around 3600 true Mages to call on (matching the numbers given in Ascension).
                        Just meager 30%? That is too few...

                        When considering everything, it is only reasonable to assess Technocracy gets the Lion's share of Awakened population on the Earth, or equally divides them between Traditions at the very least.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Numinous View Post
                          Just meager 30%? That is too few...

                          When considering everything, it is only reasonable to assess Technocracy gets the Lion's share of Awakened population on the Earth, or equally divides them between Traditions at the very least.
                          To each their own.

                          I put the Technocracy and Tradition both right around 1/3 of the Mage population (this is overall mind you, not just on Earth). That leaves the last third to be divided up among Orphans, the Nephandi, Marauders, the Crafts and Hollow Ones. I think that's about fair, given the setting setup. Obviously, YMMV.


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