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  • #61
    Originally posted by The Hanged Man View Post
    I have a problem with individual Hermetics always being presented only as idiots. If a Hermetic is mentioned in the text, it is to be an example of someone being a fucking imbecile. When Porthos Fitz-Empress and Caeron Mustai are called out in this Rote Text, it is to say, "Look at these ignorant chuckleheads, wasting their vast cosmic power in such a foolish and risky manner. Wow, HUBRIS am I right? HUBRIS, as you may have heard, IS A MAJOR THEME FOR HERMETICS. It's so vital to their portrayal that it robs them of any other positive mental characteristics, every time it is invoked. HUBRIS. HUUUUBRISSSS."
    Don't know sounds to me like you're grinding a personal axe there and seeing way waaaaaaay more subtext then is there.

    If its even there which I'd dispute.

    I took the unspoken message of the rote being "These badasses may have pulled off this trick well enough to not have a downside, but your podunk two bit nobody ain't them capiche" but maybe that's me.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by herkles View Post
      Curious why you say that as I have not felt like the Egyptians or the greco-Romans were verbena. I have always felt the were more generic neo-pagan or in general 'witchy'. Which does not capture my religion or similar ones. So just curious.
      The Verbenae as a whole have accepted (in some cases, very reluctantly) modern neo-pagans and Wiccans, because that's where the metaphysical action is. The Verbenae's roots are in exactly the sorts of classic polytheistic small-t traditions you speak of*, and I suspect that a majority of the (centuries-)old guard would rather support your sort of serious recreationism than my New Agey goddess faith. And even if they're not the majority, there's definitely a deep, powerful strain of upholding those ancient traditions there.

      *They probably share the Egyptian reconstructionism with the Hermetics' House Shaea.


      Heroes die. Hope is a phoenix.

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      • #63
        Ya know, now I've been reading this, I just don't think I've ever run, been in or seen a Mage game where any character, NPC or PC, actually acted like an Awakening Guardian of the Veil and sat around spinning webs of influence over the Consensus by tucking bits and pieces of their Truth away into the various little niche sub-cultures. Has anyone else? We've always been doing mage-y stuff.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by The Hanged Man View Post
          I have a problem with individual Hermetics always being presented only as idiots. If a Hermetic is mentioned in the text, it is to be an example of someone being a fucking imbecile. When Porthos Fitz-Empress and Caeron Mustai are called out in this Rote Text, it is to say, "Look at these ignorant chuckleheads, wasting their vast cosmic power in such a foolish and risky manner. Wow, HUBRIS am I right? HUBRIS, as you may have heard, IS A MAJOR THEME FOR HERMETICS. It's so vital to their portrayal that it robs them of any other positive mental characteristics, every time it is invoked. HUBRIS. HUUUUBRISSSS."

          Why would Porthos Fitz-Empress transmute vampires into firewood and keep them around his house? He is not stupid. He is a Hermetic Archmaster. He understands things like spell durations and the inherent magic resistance that most supernatural creatures possess. He is busy (before he died anyway) trying to encourage and assist the rising generation of mages. He is very focused on his goals, and having a bunch of vampire bombs by his fireplace doesn't do much to forward his agenda. So why would he put a trap like that for himself into his house? He wouldn't. Because Porthos Fitz-Empress is a lot of things, but he is not an idiot.
          As Satyr has commented several times about how much he identified with Porthos and how the character became his mouthpiece, I seriously doubt that the rote writeup is intended to present Porthos as an idiot.

          http://satyrosphilbrucato.wordpress....-fragile-path/
          Last edited by Chase Variant; 03-27-2014, 11:49 PM. Reason: Added link.

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          • #65
            Aye, the write-up is meant to be a joke, not a canonical statement about any of the major NPCs.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Wolfgar View Post
              Aye, the write-up is meant to be a joke, not a canonical statement about any of the major NPCs.
              I agree that it's a joke - a particularly weak one at that. When there's such a tremendous wealth of excellent source material that won't make the cut, I don't see why any word count at all should be wasted telling weak jokes about how many Hermetics it takes to accidentally kill themselves with paradox and vampire bombs*

              It was a very consistent trend in post-Revised Mage books to portray the Order of Hermes only as clowns and failures, but Jess Heinig used to swear up and down that they were his favorite tradition too. So frankly I don't care what Mr. Brucato says about Porthos. The only thing that matters is the words that wind up on the pages of this book, and these words aren't good enough.

              * - ONE. BECAUSE HUBRIS IS A MAJOR THEME FOR HERMETICS.


              Please add signature.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by The Hanged Man View Post
                I agree that it's a joke - a particularly weak one at that. When there's such a tremendous wealth of excellent source material that won't make the cut, I don't see why any word count at all should be wasted telling weak jokes about how many Hermetics it takes to accidentally kill themselves with paradox and vampire bombs
                The joke is based on the fandom, not Hermetics. Vampire-to-lawnchair dates back to 1e wisecracks about the sorts of insane stuff Masters can get up to. Hermetics probably got the rote because they've got the biggest reason to want to transmogrify Kindred (c.f. House/Clan Tremere).

                EDIT: BTW, this is first draft stuff. Satyros probably threw in a bunch of the setting stuff for fun, and given how tight the word count is it'll probably be trimmed down considerably, if the rote isn't outright exiled to one of the Big Books of Extra Goodies.
                Last edited by Captain Aeon; 03-28-2014, 02:18 AM. Reason: Thought of a second point at the last moment


                Heroes die. Hope is a phoenix.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Captain Aeon View Post
                  The joke is based on the fandom, not Hermetics. Vampire-to-lawnchair dates back to 1e wisecracks about the sorts of insane stuff Masters can get up to. Hermetics probably got the rote because they've got the biggest reason to want to transmogrify Kindred (c.f. House/Clan Tremere).

                  EDIT: BTW, this is first draft stuff. Satyros probably threw in a bunch of the setting stuff for fun, and given how tight the word count is it'll probably be trimmed down considerably, if the rote isn't outright exiled to one of the Big Books of Extra Goodies.
                  I'm aware of the source of the joke. I've been here (for a value of Here that includes several forum changes) since First Edition. And if I didn't think crap like that wasn't still subject to being revised or cut entirely, I wouldn't be talking still. I'd be withdrawing my pledge.


                  Please add signature.

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                  • #69
                    Honestly, turning a Vampire into a lawn chair always seemed like an Etherite thing to me anyways. It's just the right shade of batshit.


                    Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                      Honestly, turning a Vampire into a lawn chair always seemed like an Etherite thing to me anyways. It's just the right shade of batshit.
                      Y'know, the only time I tried to transmogrify a vampire into anything, I was playing an Etherite........of course, I wasn't going for lawnchair, I was going for human.......but yeah, it takes a special kind of sadistic or crazy to do that.

                      Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                      Ya know, now I've been reading this, I just don't think I've ever run, been in or seen a Mage game where any character, NPC or PC, actually acted like an Awakening Guardian of the Veil and sat around spinning webs of influence over the Consensus by tucking bits and pieces of their Truth away into the various little niche sub-cultures. Has anyone else? We've always been doing mage-y stuff.
                      Yeah, in Ascension, that's really the Technocracy's schtick of getting their stuff into the mainstream by placing the info in the right place. There's a reason the NWO's new Sphere is Data.

                      Originally posted by Captain Aeon View Post
                      The Verbenae as a whole have accepted (in some cases, very reluctantly) modern neo-pagans and Wiccans, because that's where the metaphysical action is. The Verbenae's roots are in exactly the sorts of classic polytheistic small-t traditions you speak of*, and I suspect that a majority of the (centuries-)old guard would rather support your sort of serious recreationism than my New Agey goddess faith. And even if they're not the majority, there's definitely a deep, powerful strain of upholding those ancient traditions there.

                      *They probably share the Egyptian reconstructionism with the Hermetics' House Shaea.
                      I think the Khemetics would still land in the Hermetic realm. One of the places the Verbena, Dreamspeakers and Cult of Ecstacy start to get muddled up together is in that "from the gut/heart" approach where it's more about the right feelings than anything else. Once you start getting into writing the stuff down and making it a formal ritual, it starts to get back to that area of magic that can be studied and experimented with, which is where the Hermetics take over.


                      - If you must be ridiculous, I must ridicule you.
                      - Those that can give up essential liberties in exchange for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Papa Bear View Post





                        Yeah, in Ascension, that's really the Technocracy's schtick of getting their stuff into the mainstream by placing the info in the right place. There's a reason the NWO's new Sphere is Data.



                        We've HAD NWO characters and they were still more concerned with keeping a lid on the crap that was going down than in "edjumicatin'" the masses.

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                        • #72
                          On convincing the Consensus -- the Hermetics have been infiltrating schools (usually universities, but sometimes they aim younger) for centuries, and the Etherites have actually mostly won a few of the scientific battles (specifically, quantum physics and dark matter/energy). This isn't a focus in most campaigns because players usually want some adventurin' in their gaming, even in Mage, but it's in there.


                          Heroes die. Hope is a phoenix.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Ajax View Post


                            We've HAD NWO characters and they were still more concerned with keeping a lid on the crap that was going down than in "edjumicatin'" the masses.
                            But for the NWO, that IS how they want to educate the masses. "Nothing to see here, no such thing as magic, move along......"


                            - If you must be ridiculous, I must ridicule you.
                            - Those that can give up essential liberties in exchange for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
                              Honestly, turning a Vampire into a lawn chair always seemed like an Etherite thing to me anyways. It's just the right shade of batshit.
                              You make a solid point point....

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                              • #75

                                Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                                Ya know, now I've been reading this, I just don't think I've ever run, been in or seen a Mage game where any character, NPC or PC, actually acted like an Awakening Guardian of the Veil and sat around spinning webs of influence over the Consensus by tucking bits and pieces of their Truth away into the various little niche sub-cultures. Has anyone else? We've always been doing mage-y stuff.
                                It was an on-going concern of a SoE in my game. He spent a lot of time trying to insert "hard-light" remote hologram projection into the Consensus. Scientific papers, press conferences, etc. Very interesting.

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