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Understanding the Baali

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  • Understanding the Baali

    Am I correct in understanding that the Baali, while united in that their nature and signature discipline draws on the "Children" - are fundamentally divided into two camps over the question of whether their goal is keep the Children asleep, or if it's too serve the Children and wake them up? The former largely follow the Road/Path of the Hive, and in modern nights often align with the Tal'mahe'Re - while the latter camp follow the Path of Screams of the Road of Sin, or Path of Revelation in modern nights and are unaligned from any major sect unless hiding their identity.

    Is that accurate?


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  • #2
    Aren't there also Baali that choose to be slaves to other Evils such as Demons and Wyrmish Spirits?

    I'm not the best Baaliologist, their clan book sounded to scary for me to buy.

    What I never got was why the Slave Baali always seemed to get one upped by the anti slave Baali, I mean not only outnumbering your rivals you should be getting some major juice from your Dark Patrons. When nonbaali sell out their soul, they get Dark Thaumaturgy, Infernal Investments which include upgrades which allow them to out discipline/generation their sires. Yet they are always the ones getting hunted and wiped out.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      Aren't there also Baali that choose to be slaves to other Evils such as Demons and Wyrmish Spirits?
      It's more the fact that the true nature of the Children varies depending on what setting-lens/crossover you're doing. If you're doing DtF, the Children are Earthbound Demons. If you're doing a WtA crossover, assume they're mega-Banes, like the Talons of the Wyrm. Etc


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      • #4
        In one book - I dunno whether it's Devil's Due or Infernalism: the Path of Screams or another one - it is written that Baali are more of a clan of demonologists; their elders are mentioned as, at some point, abandoning the worship of the infernal. It says that demons actually hate the Baali. At the same time the Baali can't let go their association with the infernal, and are ostracized by everyone.
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
        Aren't there also Baali that choose to be slaves to other Evils such as Demons and Wyrmish Spirits?
        I do recall it being said somewhere that some (or a) Baali were intrigued by the Wyrm. Might have been headcannon on the forum, though.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          In one book - I dunno whether it's Devil's Due or Infernalism: the Path of Screams or another one - it is written that Baali are more of a clan of demonologists; their elders are mentioned as, at some point, abandoning the worship of the infernal. It says that demons actually hate the Baali. At the same time the Baali can't let go their association with the infernal, and are ostracized by everyone.
          Well going by the modern Path of the Hive - the fact that they specifically honor humanity by not drinking from them and try to exclusively prey on other vampires is probably a contributing factor too.


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          • #6
            *wrong thread*


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            • #7
              Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
              Is that accurate?
              Yes, since nobody else technically answered.

              Just to add, the first group, the "keep the Children asleep" group were tied to one bloodline founder, Moloch. The second group of "wake up the Children" were tied to Nergal. There may or may not be a third group tied to the mysterious third progenitor. Also, I don't recall if the Baali tied to one specific founder were specifically stated as having to be descended from said founder. It might have been, but I can't recall either way. I know in my head, I looked at it more as a sort of political schism throughout the bloodline than a case of two competing quasi-bloodlines with different ideologies.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                I do recall it being said somewhere that some (or a) Baali were intrigued by the Wyrm. Might have been headcannon on the forum, though.
                This is house ruling/storyteller fiat backed by the slimmest of canon margins (read, Kupala), but I've always played it that the Children are powerful Wyrm spirits. It just happens to be the case vampires as a whole are ignorant enough of the Umbra, most don't know enough to understand or care about the difference.

                That is, any time I bring in any semblance of crossover material, which I am excruciatingly loathe to do any more. If I don't, quite simply put, the Children are a sufficiently arcane and obscure topic it doesn't matter.

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                • #9
                  Kupala has also been cast as an Earthbound Demon by DtF, so I think it's intentionally flexible for different crossovers rather than being canonically hinted in a defined direction.


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                  • #10
                    It would be interesting if the bloodline of the third founder of the Baali abandoned their proprietary Discipline in order to develop less costly avenues of power. I could see them ending up with Koldunic Sorcery rather than their proprietary Discipline, perhaps taught by the Old Clan Tzimisce in exchange for services performed during prehistory. Or possibly Assamite Sorcery, stolen from their ancients enemies over the course of many centuries of conflict.

                    Since they would not be associated with unholy things, I would change their bloodline weakness to something different. How about a weakness that, during the three nights of the full moon, they suffer aggravated damage from moonlight as if it was sunlight? I think they would still be a dark bloodline, they would just not necessarily be an inhumanly evil bloodline.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      Aren't there also Baali that choose to be slaves to other Evils such as Demons and Wyrmish Spirits?
                      That's more of a result of the fact that so my schisms among the Baali and as a result of the Baali wars, a lot of knowledge has been lost over the centuries. As a result, you have Baali walking around siring other vampires and none of them understand what the Children are, or what the point of the Baali's existence is. So they sell their souls to demons or Wyrm servants or such because they're under the impression that that's what they're "supposed" to do. But that tends to be done more out of ignorance.

                      Still, as a group such "ignorant independents" should be classified as a "third group," so you have the ones who fight to keep the Children asleep, the ones who want to wake the Children up and the ones who serve other Evils because they never got the memo on what's really going on.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        It would be interesting if the bloodline of the third founder of the Baali abandoned their proprietary Discipline in order to develop less costly avenues of power. I could see them ending up with Koldunic Sorcery rather than their proprietary Discipline, perhaps taught by the Old Clan Tzimisce in exchange for services performed during prehistory. Or possibly Assamite Sorcery, stolen from their ancients enemies over the course of many centuries of conflict.

                        Since they would not be associated with unholy things, I would change their bloodline weakness to something different. How about a weakness that, during the three nights of the full moon, they suffer aggravated damage from moonlight as if it was sunlight? I think they would still be a dark bloodline, they would just not necessarily be an inhumanly evil bloodline.
                        Maybe the third bloodline began to worship a god of chaos and destruction. Maybe they travelled to Egypt and subverted the religion there. Maybe they are indeed the ancestors of the Setites.

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                        • #13
                          The third lineage is the Mesoamerican Baali Control children for use, information and power while feeding them, to keep them useful but not too fed to not devour them.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nitenshi View Post
                            Maybe the third bloodline began to worship a god of chaos and destruction. Maybe they travelled to Egypt and subverted the religion there. Maybe they are indeed the ancestors of the Setites.
                            Considering that there are more 4th generation Setites than founders of the Baali, I doubt it, but if you have that happening in your games, that it cool.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                              It would be interesting if the bloodline of the third founder of the Baali abandoned their proprietary Discipline in order to develop less costly avenues of power. I could see them ending up with Koldunic Sorcery rather than their proprietary Discipline, perhaps taught by the Old Clan Tzimisce in exchange for services performed during prehistory. Or possibly Assamite Sorcery, stolen from their ancients enemies over the course of many centuries of conflict.

                              Since they would not be associated with unholy things, I would change their bloodline weakness to something different. How about a weakness that, during the three nights of the full moon, they suffer aggravated damage from moonlight as if it was sunlight? I think they would still be a dark bloodline, they would just not necessarily be an inhumanly evil bloodline.
                              My theory is, the third Baalis name is Rayzeel. Others here have extended that and advanced the theory that Rayzeel is the original name of Huitzilopochtli, or the Slave Boy.

                              Another theory is that the Children were kindred who was already ancient when the Baali were mortal. Possibly Antediluvians who went into torpor during the flood. And all the 'keep them dreaming' Baalis atrocities to lull them asleep were in the service of a lie.

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