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  • Seeking Path Advice

    Essentially my situation is that I'm very interested in playing a Kindred on a Path of Enlightenment, which my ST has given the general ok on already. It is something I've wanted to try playing for a while and I think the idea generally fits with some stuff I want to explore with the character (a nominally independent Tzimisce). And a lot of his story will be centered around trying to adjust to his new line of thinking after being embraced. However, reading into Paths, many are obviously very Sabbat flavored. So I was curious if anyone had any experience playing a Path, any advice, and how viable you think they are in a Camarilla centric game in general?

    Path of Honorable Accord
    Path of the Scorched Heart
    Path of Metamorphosis
    Path of Harmony

    These are the ones I was rather interested in exploring. I know they vary a lot, but they were the ones that seemed the ones that would be least disruptive to playing with others on Humanity. The game I'll be in is largely Camarilla focused. So if anyone had thoughts on how best to use these as I know the Scorched Heart and Metamorphosis seem harder to use for playing nicely with others.

  • #2
    Scorched Heart is a relic of Dirty Secrets. Probably best left alone, IMO.

    Honourable Accord? Great. Ask your ST if you can show him the Path of Chivalry from DA: Road of Kings. It's arguably superior.

    Metamorphosis? You will be obviously inhuman. Your modifications would stand out, making you an easy target, pawn and scapegoat.

    Harmony? Instinct means Frenzying at everything that is above your Instinct + Something in difficulty. Riding the Wave can help you keep to the Traditions while Frenzying, but what if the Prince utterly humiliates you in Elysium? You must give the Beast some form of vengeance, but avoiding breaking Elysium will be impossible.

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    • #3
      Metamorphosis is pretty much a no-go in a Camarilla game. Scorched Heart can actually hide pretty easily in a Camarilla environment. The only issue with Honorable Accord is that you mention they are supposed to be independent, whereas Honorable Accord frequently involves association with some sort of hierarchy or organization. There are more Honorable Accord followers in the Camarilla than they'll admit, but being a Tzimisce would make that more complicated. Harmony can also work well for an independent who nominally hangs around the Cam, I've seen it done, but it depends a great deal on what the local politics look like.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
        Scorched Heart is a relic of Dirty Secrets. Probably best left alone, IMO.

        Honourable Accord? Great. Ask your ST if you can show him the Path of Chivalry from DA: Road of Kings. It's arguably superior.

        Metamorphosis? You will be obviously inhuman. Your modifications would stand out, making you an easy target, pawn and scapegoat.

        Harmony? Instinct means Frenzying at everything that is above your Instinct + Something in difficulty. Riding the Wave can help you keep to the Traditions while Frenzying, but what if the Prince utterly humiliates you in Elysium? You must give the Beast some form of vengeance, but avoiding breaking Elysium will be impossible.
        Scorched Heart received an update in V20 The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra. Though, I'm not sure if you meant relic just as 'ideas from that time' or not.
        Sure thing, and much appreciated. I'll see if I can grab the book. Superior in what way?
        My thought process (which is perhaps incompatible with the path for all I know, so perhaps you can give input on that since this did seem the least likely choice) was pursuing the idea that efficiency and subtlety were the best paths towards evolution if I went this route. That altering one's self in hard to notice ways as a human would be a good survival mechanism as much as harder bones and the like could be. And he might work towards less noticeable alterations to the human form after that. Whereas alterations to his war-form would be more focused on mundane survival, adaptation, etc.
        Could be tough. I really liked the concept of predator in hiding more than anything. But I get your point.
        Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
        Metamorphosis is pretty much a no-go in a Camarilla game. Scorched Heart can actually hide pretty easily in a Camarilla environment. The only issue with Honorable Accord is that you mention they are supposed to be independent, whereas Honorable Accord frequently involves association with some sort of hierarchy or organization. There are more Honorable Accord followers in the Camarilla than they'll admit, but being a Tzimisce would make that more complicated. Harmony can also work well for an independent who nominally hangs around the Cam, I've seen it done, but it depends a great deal on what the local politics look like.
        Lemme know what you think on my take above as well. But again, I accept if it might come off as trying to squeeze the concept too hard. I think, for myself, it always made more sense of, 'why reinvent the wheel'? Why add a dorsal fin when webbed toes might work better. Maybe I'm not getting the path right at all, though. I don't want it to seem 'Tzimisce pretending to be human.' Since I know they are meant to look down on humanity, in some respects. More, what uses can I put this form towards? Since appearing human has some logical advantages compared to inhumane changes just for the sake of them for a while.
        My main concern with Scorched Heart was that, it seemed terribly easy to fall if dealing with someone with Presence or if you were blood bound at all. I'm not sure if it would move ever at that point.
        Yeah, I would think, in that situation, I'd stress his desire to be integrated into the Camarilla more. But, of course, presents different challenges.
        Agreed. As 11twiggins pointed out, I can see how, while better than Path of the Beast, clearly it isn't meant to be a big political player.
        Last edited by Monalfie; 01-09-2017, 03:16 PM.

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        • #5
          Honourable Accord can end up being a Nice Guy Who Eats People's Souls... Diablerie is part and package of the path; you can easily justify it as a means to empower yourself, to give yourself greater ability to protect your comrades and fulfill your vows. Your ST should make you take The Traditions as a vow implicitly, so you have some limitations.

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          • #6
            Chivalry is like a grand Knight of old. Honourable Accord is like a broken shadow of lost glory. Chivalry inclides defending those who are defenseless, and fighting fair. Everyone has to have a chance to surrender, fight, compromise. My Pander turned Anarch learnt the Path from an ancient Koldun. Unfortunately for him, while she was whittling his Humanity down to 1 with her Rituals and Dominate, consensually, to help him switch onto Kings, she planted Commands in him using Dominate 8 that have made him a Manchurian Candidate for her true purpose, the ascendency of the True Black Hand, who will be villains in roughly 50 session's time.

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            • #7
              If that seems unfair, he was informed by NPCs of her "power level" and entered her Estate of his own volition. When the commands kick in he'll get a roll to resist.

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              • #8
                As others have previously mentioned, paths with Instinct (Harmony, Metamorphosis) will be hard to pull off in a Camarilla enviroment since the slightest provocation can set you off if you aren't careful.
                Honorable Accord might work (though i agree that DA Chivalry is better).
                Can't really comment on Scorched Heart since i've never seen it in game but it might prove a challenge, from what i've heard and read it's basicly like playing a vampire Vulcan.





                English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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                • #9
                  Scorched Heart bans lying, in a secret society, does it not? I mean... oversight? Every Cainite PC in the TBH takes 1 dot in Alternate Identity as standard, and yet we have a strange obsession with not lying in the most common Path among the True Brujah.

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                  • #10
                    Honorable Accord
                    Honorable Accord works perfectly well within the Camarilla and has the advantage of espousing the same Virtues as Humanity (Conscience and Self-Control). Of all the Paths in the main V20 book I consider this one the most likely to be common within the Camarilla especially among older vampires.

                    Scorched Heart
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                    Scorched Heart bans lying, in a secret society, does it not? I mean... oversight? Every Cainite PC in the TBH takes 1 dot in Alternate Identity as standard, and yet we have a strange obsession with not lying in the most common Path among the True Brujah.
                    They share their knowledge among those who can be trusted and eliminate enemies with finality as V20 Black Hand: Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra makes this fairly clear (pg 56).

                    The Unforgiving reveal only what is necessary to achieve their ends; the less an enemy knows, the more likely he is to make a mistake. Threats against oneself, however veiled, must be treated as real until proven otherwise. Loose ends and subtle hints cannot be trusted. The Unforgiving are dauntless and persistent in pursuit of a foe, not because of any petty emotional grudge or fear, but that the simple logic of self-preservation demands that one avoid any opportunity for an enemy to return and exact unexpected harm.
                    Lying and not giving an enemy information are two different things. Scorched Hearts can be some of the best protectors of the Masquerade because they understand there are many enemies in the world and have no emotional pull keeping them from doing what is necessary including removing troublesome mortals permanently to keep it. Those who have the knowledge to ask the right questions are either brought into the fold or eliminated as a threat.

                    Metamorphosis
                    The biggest issue with Metamorphosis is that it is an Instinct path that requires you to ride out a frenzy. This will force a choice between maintaining the Masquerade and sinning against your Path at level 5 which is low enough to cause issues.

                    Harmony
                    The issue with Harmony is that it is an Instinct path which can cause problems with frenzies and the Masquerade. While it is not as big a deal the level 9 and 10 sins probably preclude you from operating within Camarilla cities (although I could see it being a viable Path for more nomadic/wilderness dwelling Gangrel).

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                    • #11
                      Glad the later write-up cleared it up. I think Dirty Secrets was very "fuck you" about it, but I'm not sure... I'm not really up to digging through it again. One look at the Dirty version of Temporis was enough to make me slide the battered copy I'd borrowed across the table and audibly say "Noooooooooooope".

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                        Chivalry is like a grand Knight of old. Honourable Accord is like a broken shadow of lost glory. Chivalry inclides defending those who are defenseless, and fighting fair. Everyone has to have a chance to surrender, fight, compromise. My Pander turned Anarch learnt the Path from an ancient Koldun. Unfortunately for him, while she was whittling his Humanity down to 1 with her Rituals and Dominate, consensually, to help him switch onto Kings, she planted Commands in him using Dominate 8 that have made him a Manchurian Candidate for her true purpose, the ascendency of the True Black Hand, who will be villains in roughly 50 session's time.
                        Pretty interesting to hear, honestly. Which makes me wonder if one could be a Tal'Mahe'Ra member under Path of Honorable Accord. I assume precepts would include things like serving the Antediluvian in your actions, preserving Cain/Lilith lore, upkeeping sect secrecy, protecting kine, and disrupting other sects when possible? Make me curious, though the only rites I know they have off-hand are their 3-4 initiation rites.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                          Pretty interesting to hear, honestly. Which makes me wonder if one could be a Tal'Mahe'Ra member under Path of Honorable Accord. I assume precepts would include things like serving the Antediluvian in your actions, preserving Cain/Lilith lore, upkeeping sect secrecy, protecting kine, and disrupting other sects when possible? Make me curious, though the only rites I know they have off-hand are their 3-4 initiation rites.
                          Being on the Kings variant of the Path of the Tyrant, this Elder maintains the image of a caring and loving ruler, whilst secretly being savage and cruel. She collects oddities, rare Revenants and Bloodlines, and acts as a patron to them, secretly stealing lore and secrets and powers using her incredibly potent Auspex. Her estate (a menagerie in her mind) includes all but two Revenant families, and half of all of the obscure bloodlines. None of them want to leave, but she's VERY good at implanting a fear of the outside with her Dominate... The Revenants have been de-Vicissituded in some cases, using obscure Koldunic rites. For example, her Zanatosa don't have Vicissitude.

                          Her devotion is to the Hand, and she wishes to see the return of the Antedeluvians. She thinks that as a loyal servant of the cause, the Aralu will reward her, and fulfill her wish of destroying the users of Vicissitude, along with the impure among the Cainite race. She disrupts the Sects by embracing Childer, sometimes by proxy (she has servants from different Clans) and sending them out into the world, subtly manipulating them. None of them know of her true goals.

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                          • #14
                            You have to be careful with Honorable Accord because the character has to keep their word, always and forever, or it will be an equivalent sin to mass murder of innocents for Humanity. If your character promises to obey someone, they have to obey the dictates of that person, regardless of the nature of the dictate. You could be ordered to skin and barbecue a busload of kindergarten students alive, and you have to do so with no regrets.

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                            • #15
                              To followup on this, I was hoping to get some thoughts on some potential alternative sins/guidelines for how others might view a pair of paths. Got to thinking on these after the discussion in this thread and another. Essentially these would be Path of Honorable Accord - True Black Hand and Path of Metamorphosis - Old Clan Tzimisce.

                              Path of Honorable Accord has always seemingly held onto a history of being Sabbat related. And from what I've seen, V20 was the first to really distinguish that Camarilla Knights are a thing (of course, I might be overlooking aspects of that history). Regardless, two sins stick out as being somewhat unclear on how you are to adapt them.
                              Sin 10 - Failing to uphold all the precepts of your group.
                              Sin 7 - Failing to participate in your group's rituals.
                              I think seven especially shows this history because I believe some previous iterations were about participating in ritae. I need to go back through my Guide to the TMR, but the only rituals I could recall off-hand were introduction rituals into the sects. So I'm curious if anyone had good thoughts on what rituals are needed to be consistently performed or is there a better alternative to this sin? And what do you think should be considered the core precepts of the TMR for the sake of the top sin?

                              And as for Path of Metamorphosis, certain parts (arguably two sins) really indicate this is about Fleshcrafting and Vicissitude.
                              Sin 3 - Failure to experiment, even at risk to oneself.
                              Sin 2 - Neglecting to alter one's own body.
                              My issue is that I'm aware some Old Clan Tzimisce still seek the idea of metamorphosis. That their abstaining from Vicissitude is not merely about the presence of the Eldest, but supposedly this concept of 'a perfect brush makes a poor artist.' So sin two seems quite out of the question as Kindred have an extremely hard time making any serious alteration without the discipline. And perhaps I'm missing an obvious thought, but I'm not immediately sure of what sort of experimentation could (or should) be pursued by a more spiritual take of metamorphosis. So I'd greatly appreciate any input on possible alternatives or different takes on these sins in the context of a Spiritual Path of Metamorphosis.

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