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My Answers to the Statuses of the Antediluvians

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  • My Answers to the Statuses of the Antediluvians

    So I've been tinkering with this a bit, and I thought I'd share the answers (not being shared directly with my players, but inspiring mysteries). The breakthrough on several of these came from the snippet of the Becket Diary that referred to Ashur as a state of being - since then I've defined it for my own table as the opposing goal of Golconda being chased by several Antedeluvians and Methuselahs that transcends all semblances of humanity and achieves unity with a Discipline itself.

    (note that I'm using the V20 timeline here, no Week of Nightmares, no 6th Great Maelstrom, Ur-Shulgi's not awake yet but ideologically the schisms already starting, Goriatrix defected back in the Dark Ages, etc)

    Ilyes: Diablerized by Troile at the fall of Troy. However one of his Temporis 10 abilities allowed him to co-locate himself into the future (though his holy grail of true time travel into the past remained beyond him), and he can still appear and take actions in the present - it will just be a him that dates from before his diablerie, which he knows of but appears to be a fate he can't avoid. He might have even ended up willingly allowing it in hopes of transcending his physical form and achieving the state of "Ashur" with time itself - but there is no indication he succeeded if so.

    Ennoia: In a large-area Earthmeld moving tectonically through the globe. She's chasing Ashur with Protean that will make her one with the planet as a whole. She's currently under/within Yellowstone.

    Malkav (Malach): "Died" and was devoured by his childer not long after the fall of the Second City. Achieved Ashur with Dementation and survives as the Madness Network in the minds of every wielder of Dementation and every mind touched by the power.

    Absimiliard: Currently stirring after a long sleep in Antarctic ice that's melting away. He's used Ofuscate 9 to erase memory of his existence once before, but Baba Yaga remembered and whispered enough for the rumors to spread again and his name, or at least a title he assumed, to survive. With Obfuscate 10 he can apply that effect with even more totality on anyone he kills. All of his victims in "recorded" history have been retroactively forgotten and erased. Zillah is only remembered as he was young at the time and hadn't developed Obfuscate 10 yet.

    Arikel: Awake in a cave on the coast of eastern Africa where her ship went ashore millennia ago. It was here the Ishtarri Legacy was born. She's been creating art of transcendent and horrifying beauty in the cave network, while summoning all her needs to her via Presence upon her descendants.

    Saulot: Consumed by Tremere in 1133. His soul in a state of Golconda does battle with Zahhak (Tzimisce) in its state of Ashur for control of Tremere's body which remains primarily in Torpor, occasionally going through violent shapeshifting spasms. When awake the body of the false Antedeluvian performs as himself but is prone to esoteric statements, actions and extreme mood-swings that those close to him know to be out of character for the once ambitious power-hungry leader of the House. He wears billowing robes and hood to conceal any vicissitude effects, or third-eye.

    Ventru (Dios Vastu): Slain in the fall of the Second City. His childer Veddhartha (sire of the Danava line) maintained a blood sorcery vessel of his vitea though, and used it several times in antiquity to embrace new 4th Generation Ventrue (much to the objection of a few other Methuselahs, including Artemis Orthia). If the vessel still exists in Modern Nights, it may have enough vitea left in it for one last 4th Generation embrace.

    Lasombra (Laza Omri Baras): Achieved Ashur with Obtenebration. He now IS the Abyss, and exists as a sliver of darkness in the soul of every wielder of Obtenebration

    Eldest (Zahhak): Achieved Ashur with Vicissitude. Exists alive in the flesh of every wielder and victim of Vicissitude

    Haqim: Been awake for years watching his Clan invisibly - judging. The rise of Ur-Shulgi and factionalizing of the Clan will provide much in terms of information to base his final decisions on.

    Set/Typhon (Sutekh): His body was destroyed long ago by a combined assault by the Osirian League including Horus himself. However, his heart was not in his body at the time, and it remains in the most unexpected of places - the care of Osiris in Amenti, who won't give the blow of final death to his own brother. If the Setites can obtain that heart, Sutekh can be reborn. [note, Sutekh's Serpentis follows the Dark Ages model, and is not actually heavily snake-themed. One of his childer developed the well known serpentine applications in his pursuit of Ashur that would literally turn him into Apophis itself. Sutekh will look harshly on this.]

    Cappadocius (Katpatuka): Diablerized by Augustus Giovanni in 1444, chasing Ashur with Necromancy (he might have even originated Thanatosis as a 1-10 dot Discipline in this process), but he failed to achieve his final goal, becoming a mere (though high stated) Wraith in his escape from soul-consumption, rather than becoming death itself.

    Ravana: [Note - Dracian, a wanderer who was never part of the rule of the First City, was the Second Generation sire of Ravana and Ennoia] In Torpor in a secret crypt in Sri Lanka hidden by Chimestry and Obfuscate. Through Chimestry, his dreams manifest in the crypt and sometimes wander the night - and dance across the Umbra too, particularly a certain Yomi Hell.


    (and the false Antediluvians)

    Troile: In torpor. Loyal Brujah fled with her in a casket by sea at the fall of Carthage, but she awoke in hunger-frenzy and consumed them, and the ship shank. She currently sleeps at the bottom of the Mediterranean

    Tremere: Pushed into Goriatrix's 4th Generation body by the more potent soul of Saulot and presence of Zahhak in his blood and flesh. Knowing the unholy "thing" that was wearing his face his Clan was serving, he tried to quietly work against it, until his heresy was exposed and he was forced to flee. By the 13th Century the Clan has a kill order on "Goriatrix" who madly claims to be the true Tremere. Goriatrix/Tremere and the handful that believe him will survive to participate in the Anarch's Revolt, but by the time of the Convention of Thorns, he is captured and executed. The "Last Confession of Goriatrix" is a violently suppressed document by the Camarilla in Modern Nights

    Augustus Giovanni: Spends most of his time in Torpor in Venice - at least his body does. Using necromancy, his soul wanders the Underworld, hunting the wraith of Cappadocius, and avoiding the Harbingers of Skulls who also seek their sire's wraith (though not to consume as Augustus does).
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 01-12-2017, 04:03 AM.


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  • #2
    There is definitely a "Mind, Body, & Soul" dark trinity thing going on with Malkav, Tzimisce, and Lasombra being the 3 Antedeluvians who have achieved permanent Ashur transcending beyond their original bodies.


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    • #3
      I like to think that Set and Osiris were Embraced by the same 3rd generation Kindred, Typhon (also known as Apep to the Egyptians) around 5,000 BC. Typhon/Apep died because Set committed diablerie against him after Typhon/Apep decided to destroy Osiris for being too human (the dismemberment of Osiris actually was performed by Typhon/Apep and Set used his blood to keep Osiris from dying while Isis recreated his body). The mythological conflict between Osiris and Set came much later, twenty-five hundred years after their Embrace, as Set started to go insane when the Egyptian people turned against him while deifying his brother. It was during that time that Osiris created the Children of Osiris to combat his brother.

      In my version of the Set myth, Set is sent into torpor by a stake made from a piece of the True Cross which, while it did not destroy him, sent him into a far greater torpor than anything experienced by another Antediluvian. He was staked by Mary Magdalene, who escaped to Alexandria after the crucifixion, and she staked him after he attacked her companions while attempted to discover the source of the blinding level of True Faith that was contained within Mary Magdalene (who possessed True Faith 5) while she carried a piece of the True Cross (which possessed True Faith 5), which gave her an effective True Faith rating of 10. Mary Magdalene left Alexandria after she staked Set in a hidden subterranean temple underneath Alexandria and sealed his tomb with the power of her True Faith. Set is still trapped within his tomb, but after twenty centuries even a stake made of the True Cross will crumble and the seals made from the True Faith of Mary Magdalen will fade, and Set will awaken.

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      • #4
        My thinking is that the events of Egyptian myths of the gods played out pre-Flood. Azar was never a Vampire - rather Sutekh went looking for power after being defeated and banished by Heru, Aset (a Mage), and the resurrected Azar, and found the First City. The originator of Bardo was one of Sutekh's progeny who betrayed him to the worship of Azar (who dwelt now in Amenti).


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        • #5
          Actually, Sutekh was destroyed in the year 0. He had been in torpor in what is now Tel Aviv but was completely obliterated by his proximity to the newborn Christ, his origins in primordial darkness not meshing well with the worldwide holy reverberations of the birth of the Son of God.

          There weren't even ashes, bro. At least that's my take.


          Light inspires illusion and interpretation. Truth can only be found in darkness.

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          • #6
            The whole thing about Ashur as a state of being and the multiple antes - and methuselahs - who seek or actually found it seems pretty entertaining, but what function do they, their actions and agendas actually serve to your chronicle?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
              The whole thing about Ashur as a state of being and the multiple antes - and methuselahs - who seek or actually found it seems pretty entertaining, but what function do they, their actions and agendas actually serve to your chronicle?
              At this point I have a Malkavian Noddist scholar who is researching the Antedeluvians who is going to get too close to the truth and end up ripping himself to pieces in his madness (or Malkav's inflicted self-defense), leaving indication of the whole Dark Trinity thng - the idea of a new interation of life formed with bodies of Vicissitude, minds of Dementation, and souls of Obetenbration. Draw on some Lovecraftian investigative horror if the PCs follow the trail.

              Once the PCs learn about Ashur from this plotline (and possibly encounter some horrors born of said three Antediluvians), I'm planning on a Setite Methuselah heretically seeking Ashur with Serpentis as a major antagonist.


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              • #8
                Expanding...

                Malkav isn't really a person anymore. He is so insane that he "plays" the Jyhad, except in the way that one child might play as 6 different people in a board game when they're lonely, and has become his own rival in the process. Malkav's many personalities play games with eachother, entire fragments of conflicts simply being the will of his fevered mind. Malkav is intensely fond of his descendants in his own strange way, and keeps copies of their minds when they "disappear". He isn't really sure where they go, so he holds onto pieces of them. They depart this world when they die, but fragments of his power wear the "skin" of their mind, acting as they would and seeming as they would within the network. These Malkavians in the network act independently, and forge alliances with Malkavians in the real world... Malkav, as a result, is an engine of change which has prevented the world of Vampires from stagnating.

                The only singularity in Malkav's mind is his hatred of the Sabbat. At my table (optional version which I like very much) there are NO Malkavian Antitribu. The only way it could happen is if a Malkavian reached Golconda and then tried to join the Sabbat, or had True Faith 5 and tried to join the Sabbat (never going to happen, obviously) since only then can they ignore his powerful use of Dominate. Malkav can smell the stench of his old foe in the Sect, which he sees as a festering wound on the world. Rather than making his descendants attack en masse (far too obvious) his many, many minds act in disharmonic concert. One Malkavian will spy from afar, another will lead forces, but on average they fight the Sabbat more strongly than other members of the Camarilla, using their skills as best they can. Malkavians who are asked to join the Sabbat will say No for one reason or another. When Pushed, very sensitive Malkavians will say "We can smell him, you know?", regardless of cultural background, in their primary tongue. As a result the Lasombra despise Malkavians, either wanting them all dead, speaking of them as useless fools or being embarassed by their failure to form Antitribu. The Tzimisce are more curious. Clearly they think there is some taint upon the Sabbat... (play BEAGOODLAD.exe).

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                • #9
                  I like some of the ideas and possibilities here, but was not entirely sure what was meant by Ashur being opposite Golconda? Though Im interested in the concept of Ashur being a state rather than specific or even unnamed individuals.


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                    I like some of the ideas and possibilities here, but was not entirely sure what was meant by Ashur being opposite Golconda? Though Im interested in the concept of Ashur being a state rather than specific or even unnamed individuals.
                    I think the idea is that Golconda is typically considered as transcending the vampiric curse. The opposite, I would think, is embracing it. So basically similar discussion to 'lesser Golconda' of Metamorphosis, but applied to other disciplines.

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                    • #11
                      I do think that Ashur is the complete opposite of Golconda, though I would think that it would be associated with Paths rather than Clans or Disciplines.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                        Ventru (Dios Vastu): Slain in the fall of the Second City. His childer Veddhartha (sire of the Danava line) maintained a blood sorcery vessel of his vitea though, and used it several times in antiquity to embrace new 4th Generation Ventrue (much to the objection of a few other Methuselahs, including Artemis Orthia). If the vessel still exists in Modern Nights, it may have enough vitea left in it for one last 4th Generation embrace.

                        Ravana: [Note - Dracian, a wanderer who was never part of the rule of the First City, was the Second Generation sire of Ravana and Ennoia] In Torpor in a secret crypt in Sri Lanka hidden by Chimestry and Obfuscate. Through Chimestry, his dreams manifest in the crypt and sometimes wander the night - and dance across the Umbra too, particularly a certain Yomi Hell.


                        Troile: In torpor. Loyal Brujah fled with her in a casket by sea at the fall of Carthage, but she awoke in hunger-frenzy and consumed them, and the ship shank. She currently sleeps at the bottom of the Mediterranean

                        Tremere: Pushed into Goriatrix's 4th Generation body by the more potent soul of Saulot and presence of Zahhak in his blood and flesh. Knowing the unholy "thing" that was wearing his face his Clan was serving, he tried to quietly work against it, until his heresy was exposed and he was forced to flee. By the 13th Century the Clan has a kill order on "Goriatrix" who madly claims to be the true Tremere. Goriatrix/Tremere and the handful that believe him will survive to participate in the Anarch's Revolt, but by the time of the Convention of Thorns, he is captured and executed. The "Last Confession of Goriatrix" is a violently suppressed document by the Camarilla in Modern Nights

                        Augustus Giovanni: Spends most of his time in Torpor in Venice - at least his body does. Using necromancy, his soul wanders the Underworld, hunting the wraith of Cappadocius, and avoiding the Harbingers of Skulls who also seek their sire's wraith (though not to consume as Augustus does).
                        I really like the ideas of this entry. 4th generation Ventrue being embraced by a vessel, Brujah being at the bottom of the Mediterranean, Schism within the Tremere by Goratrix, who claims to be Tremere (where would Etrius stand?) and Augustus issue with Cappadocius spectre.

                        On the other hand, I still cannot digest the claim from Gehenna of Ventrue being dead since the Second City. The attempt to justify, what I believe to be, a gross overlook from the writer is something I wouldn't do. But a great idea nonetheless. The Dracian / Ravnos is issue applies the same case, perhaps in 2nd ed the writers had the idea of some of them being of the Second Generation, but by Revised edition, such idea was scrapped. Again, great idea to justify that controversy between both editions.

                        -Saga

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                        • #13
                          I think that there is room for complete diablerie of the 3rd generation (Brujah and Ventrue), incomplete diablerie (Cappodocious and Saulot), and failed diablerie (Lasombra and Tzimisce). I would think that it would be impossible for Antediluvian to die without a 4th generation committing diablerie against them (and that seems to not even be a guarantee) or by the direct efforts of another 3rd generation. You could think of it as a lesser form of the protective curse put on Adam or just a side effect of being an undead god.

                          I imagine that Ravnos will return within a couple of decades after using Chimestry 10 to fool the world into thinking he died and Obfuscate 9 to take a new identity. The mass destruction of the Ravnos was required for his disappearance and, coincidentally, purged the Clan of the weak. He will spend the next decade Embracing the core of a new Clan of Ravnos and, when the time is right, will reclaim South Asia for his own. Heck, the events of the entire Week of Nightmares could be part of a Chimestry 10 effect, with the Red Sign being an illusion powerful enough to fool the entire Solar System, with Ravnos intended to lure out his siblings so that they will be destroyed by their own childer.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Saga View Post
                            On the other hand, I still cannot digest the claim from Gehenna of Ventrue being dead since the Second City. The attempt to justify, what I believe to be, a gross overlook from the writer is something I wouldn't do. But a great idea nonetheless. The Dracian / Ravnos is issue applies the same case, perhaps in 2nd ed the writers had the idea of some of them being of the Second Generation, but by Revised edition, such idea was scrapped. Again, great idea to justify that controversy between both editions.

                            -Saga
                            The canon's always been full of contradictory claims about the Antediluvians (likely intentional or at least consciously allowed to add to the mythic unknowability about them and "Noddist" lore). It's just a matter of which truth you find most compelling and want to use.
                            Last edited by glamourweaver; 01-15-2017, 04:26 PM.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Saga View Post
                              (where would Etrius stand?)
                              Etrius lead the loyalist Tremere. He's blood-bound loyal to "Tremere's" body.


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