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Replacing Dominate 4 and Other Unused Powers

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  • #31
    Well, I have to agree with the idea that Dementation is problematic. In my games, I require my Malkavian players to be Dominate Malkavians and ban Dementation for anyone who possesses the Virtues of Conscience or Self-Control (I have the same restrictions for Daimionon). Dementation is an inhuman Discipline that really only exists to spread insanity and cause suffering, so it makes sense that its practitioners would have to abandon every connection to humanity to develop it. I replace it with Dominate in Malkavian NPCs who possess the Virtues of Conscience or Self-Control.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
      Well, I have to agree with the idea that Dementation is problematic. In my games, I require my Malkavian players to be Dominate Malkavians and ban Dementation for anyone who possesses the Virtues of Conscience or Self-Control (I have the same restrictions for Daimionon). Dementation is an inhuman Discipline that really only exists to spread insanity and cause suffering, so it makes sense that its practitioners would have to abandon every connection to humanity to develop it. I replace it with Dominate in Malkavian NPCs who possess the Virtues of Conscience or Self-Control.
      That's contrary to the Malkavian thesis on insanity. Dementation 3 shows you the truth for a reason; there is truth in insanity. Malkavians are proof of that. Dementation isn't any more inhuman than Potence. Levels 1-4 are just normal powers. They can be used for good or evil. Level 5 is debatable, however it's a poorly written power. 1 Derangement is hard to RP. 5? 5 at once? 5 new ones that I didn't even get to decide or prepare for?

      Is driving someone insane wrong? Well, Dementation 5 is waking up hidden depths in a person's mind. I'd call that a Humanity 3 sin if done for a reason, 2 if it's done for fun. No sin if it's done for a legitimate reason (e.g. the person wants to learn Dementation, or the person is hateful towards the mentally ill).

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
        I've never bought Conditioning and can't remember any players doing either (unless it was to get to lvl 5). Though my reason is that having conditioned servants is just impractical. They are mindless and can't (if i understand the power correctly) even take a piss or eat without their master telling them to do so. They aren't autonomous at all which is just impractical and a threat to the Masquerade.
        Conditioned servants aren't necessarily mindless automata, and you'd do yourself a real boon by re-reading the actual rules for the power. This only occurs after protracted, sustained Conditioning which is the result of a willful effort by the vampire employing the power. Vampires employing this power do not have to take Conditioning this far; in fact, the rules make a point of emphasizing this by pointing out partially-conditioned subjects retain their individuality and personal drive while becoming pliant to the vampires' demands.

        To wit, for most social vampires' (which is to say every clan with Dominate in the first place) ends, partial conditioning is vastly more useful than complete conditioning for this fact. Really, there are only two uses for "full" conditioning: reining in troublesome, but useful, ghouls (who, let's all remember, invariably go bugfuck, violently, insane), and to create immutably-loyal bodyguards (who are probably also ghouls). Well, you could add in "punishing/enslaving other vampires" under the correct conditions (heh), but that's neither here nor there.

        And, as has already been said on this thread, a lack of autonomy is not synonymous to a lack of competency.

        Thaumaturgy Path of Blood Level 2, there are just not many scenarios where this power is usefull imo, it would be imo better if you could burn the blood without pumping the attributes of your opponent, or if it didn't had negative side effects and you could use it to buff your allies (it seems that the power ignores generation limits).
        During my TC game in which I was playing a Tremere, we had a really nasty combat that saw our Brujah PC getting beaten up one side of the room and down the other. He had multiple aggravated levels and had just gotten knocked down to incap with lethal. On my turn I used blood rage to heal his lethal, and excess successes to buff his Strength; this allowed him to immediately frenzy, ignoring the wound penalties from the aggravated, and promptly mulch the enemies we were fighting. During the course of the fight I used Theft of Vitae on him, and immediately leveraged that into Binding the Beast against him after the fight to prevent his turning on me in frenzy for having used Theft of Vitae.
        Last edited by Theodrim; 01-22-2017, 02:53 PM.

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        • #34
          Theodrim Thanks. As you say, PoB 2 is really useful and powerful. I had an idea for two Setite lovers who swap hearts using Akhu, and use this to cast PoB 2 on eachother from afar to help eachother. They're level 3 blood bonded to eachother and are the definition of Power Couple, since they can Frenzy and blood-pump at will to insane levels.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
            And, as has already been said on this thread, a lack of autonomy is not synonymous to a lack of competency.
            The real "issue" is that they won't contradict your orders. That's what you want, except some vampires aren't as competent as they think they are, and sometimes their servants would know better. Lets say, for example, you have a powerful local Gangrel you've roped in, somehow, to be your conditioned bodyguard. He, of course, has standing orders to kill anyone who physically harms you. So at court one night, your get into a spat with your lover that turns violent, and they injure you, maybe accidentally...and are promptly torn apart by your conditoned servant. Even though he knows better, he can't contradict your orders. Nobody to blame but yourself. Things can get really bad if you have a lot of conditoned servants and you get torpored, or are otherwise out of contact with them for a long time. Conditoned bodyguards, depending on how your commands are worded, can pretty easily wind up attacking people who are actually trying to help you. "Let no one lay a finger on me!", and then your buddy is trying to pull out a stake...

            But yes, I recognize that conditioning can be difficult to leverage depending on the format of your chronicle.

            During my TC game in which I was playing a Tremere, we had a really nasty combat that saw our Brujah PC getting beaten up one side of the room and down the other. He had multiple aggravated levels and had just gotten knocked down to incap with lethal. On my turn I used blood rage to heal his lethal, and excess successes to buff his Strength; this allowed him to immediately frenzy, ignoring the wound penalties from the aggravated, and promptly mulch the enemies we were fighting. During the course of the fight I used Theft of Vitae on him, and immediately leveraged that into Binding the Beast against him after the fight to prevent his turning on me in frenzy for having used Theft of Vitae.
            Don't rituals have a 5*Level minute casting time?

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            • #36
              Conditioning is also useful to make allies more resistant to the use of others with Dominate abilities, which is the primary use I've ever seen it get.

              That said, I plan on rewriting it for my home games, but I plan to rewrite everything.



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              • #37
                Frankly, I've never like Dementation, and would rather just chuck out the whole thing.

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                • #38
                  Dude, conditioning is the ultimate downtime power and the MOST used discipline during downtimes (Thaumaturgy excluded)!!!

                  The number of times I had a character who was like "Over the 3 week downtime I lure subject X back to my haven and turn him into my slave." We do a little mini scene for the abduction or seduction and then it's all rolling, the number of loyal ghouls made this way is beyond counting.

                  That being said, I salute you for giving us an alternative! I love it too! Great power!

                  My thoughts are that all clans should have a spin on their disciplines, I don't suggest anyone implement this but in the fiction I write, all the clans have little tweaks to their disciplines that make them a little different from how they work for the other clans, even if it's just minor things like the Nosferatu Obfuscate is a little more likely to help them avoid notice but they're mask of a thousand faces usually can only help them create facade identities which have some hint of a deformity.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Zennis View Post
                    My thoughts are that all clans should have a spin on their disciplines, I don't suggest anyone implement this but in the fiction I write, all the clans have little tweaks to their disciplines that make them a little different from how they work for the other clans, even if it's just minor things like the Nosferatu Obfuscate is a little more likely to help them avoid notice but they're mask of a thousand faces usually can only help them create facade identities which have some hint of a deformity.
                    The idea here present is great and I love it. No one looks at the same thing and sees the same or uses it the same way.

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