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Where do you think Vampire Souls go?

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  • Where do you think Vampire Souls go?

    So while most games this never comes up, I am wondering about discussing peoples headcanons and such about the fate of Vampire souls when they die. Some vampires can exist as Ghosts, and some souls are eaten by their fellows, but we know Vampires can further sell their souls to Demons. But what do you think happens with most vampire souls? I like to think unless they achieve Golconda or some similar forgiveness and being turned back into a human vampire souls go to some deeper level of the underworld like perhaps deep into the Labyrinth, and if they sell their souls to demons their souls may become food for their masters, or made into demons.

    But this way if I do an Apocalyptic chronicle, like the Giovanni do their Ritual, or some sort of Hell on Earth then I don't know maybe their is a big vault/prison/hell were all the Kindred are doomed to. Maybe even a similar situation to the Wan Kuei?

    With perhaps most mortals in the World of Darkness are reincarnated/recycled, or some other destination.

    Thoughts?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    They become Wraiths and are soulforged by their former victims.

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    • #3
      I don't imagine anything special happens to vampire souls. You die, you either become a wraith or go to heaven. I can see an argument made both for there being an abnormally large number of vampire wraiths and abnormally low number.

      Argument for low number: due to their immortality and nature vampires lose ties with the world. They have few or no friends, their family is long gone, and their sense of self and morality is being erroded by the beast. Death is a welcome respite and vampires go to heaven, unburdened by any attachments.
      Argument for large number: vampires are greatly invested into their schemes and stick around even after death unwilling to move on.

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      • #4

        I've always liked entertaining the idea that Vampires have an inherently worse place in the afterlife compared to others (not something I'm claiming is in the lore). I think this idea underscores the being a Vampire is a curse. That one's damnation can only be avoided through either True Faith, God's Path of Mercy, or some more esoteric Path that might guide one to a different reality.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
          I've always liked entertaining the idea that Vampires have an inherently worse place in the afterlife compared to others (not something I'm claiming is in the lore). I think this idea underscores the being a Vampire is a curse. That one's damnation can only be avoided through either True Faith, God's Path of Mercy, or some more esoteric Path that might guide one to a different reality.
          Yeah this is what I naturally go towards, becoming a vampire is Damnation unless you find a way to undamn yourself.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            No escape. All vampires end in Sheol, just might take some time. No matter the level of true faith or path, the Cursed suffer once they die. The entire antediluvian scheme is to discover some way to escape it. All failed. (Aside from tzmisce, who basically lobotomized itself and "lives" in the most technical sense of the word. Better then sheol though.)

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            • #7
              No, I do not think that there is any basis in the lore for that. Cappadocious became a Wraith before he became a Specter. Now, the question becomes how much, if any, of the power of a Kindred translates into the power of a Wraith upon death. Since the Giovanni seem to have had trouble dealing with Cappadocious after he reappeared as a Specter, there could be an argument made that the Kindred become something different when they die.

              One possibility would be for the Kindred to keep their Disciplines after they die, allow them to learn Arcanoi and Disciplines, and give them the ability to fuel Disciplines with Pathos (or with Angst when their Shadows are active) instead of with Blood Pool. Some of the powers would only function in the Skinlands (Necromancy, Thaumaturgy, etc), some of the powers would function in the Shadowlands or Skinlands (Animalism, Dominate, Presence, etc), and some would function everywhere (Celerity, Fortitude, Potence, etc). In this interpretation, Kindred would retain their Generation but would be unable to lower it after it after death. They would also be unable to create Blood Bonds, Ghouls, etc with their Pathos. They would otherwise be Wraiths with Fetters, Passions, and Shadows, they would just be very powerful Wraiths.

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              • #8
                The Stomach of another Kindred most likely.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shushu View Post
                  Aside from tzmisce, who basically lobotomized itself and "lives" in the most technical sense of the word...
                  Swear to god I initially read this as "the most tentacle sense of the word..."


                  I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                  The Malkavian Madness Network

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                  • #10
                    I've always been rather partial to the buffyverse version of things that they don't have souls at all. Or like it says in the promo of the new vtm game that was cancelled, "Their souls discarded, their flesh remade into a fount of undying power."

                    I never read too much about ghosts or wraiths or anything so I don't know how well that works with the established metaplot but that's my feeling.


                    Light inspires illusion and interpretation. Truth can only be found in darkness.

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                    • #11
                      It's established that SOME Vampires become Wraiths, but not very often at all. My take? Vampires are being dragged off somewhere special. Maybe they're being consumed by an Antedeluvian, a powerful Demon, some realm of punishment/reward... it takes immense Will and Purpose to avoid this. Golconda, Serious Unfinished Business + Occult Knowledge, Azhi Dahaka, True Faith, Becoming Human...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                        It's established that SOME Vampires become Wraiths, but not very often at all. My take? Vampires are being dragged off somewhere special. Maybe they're being consumed by an Antedeluvian, a powerful Demon, some realm of punishment/reward... it takes immense Will and Purpose to avoid this. Golconda, Serious Unfinished Business + Occult Knowledge, Azhi Dahaka, True Faith, Becoming Human...
                        Or they just go to heaven(?), like every other human eventually does. Remember, that Underworld is hell. There is no special super hell with demons poking you with pitchforks. Wraiths are in hell and solving their problem lets them move on.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                          Or they just go to heaven(?), like every other human eventually does. Remember, that Underworld is hell. There is no special super hell with demons poking you with pitchforks. Wraiths are in hell and solving their problem lets them move on.
                          Uhhh actually that is debateable. For one the Underworld is confusing for Wraiths and those with a wide view of Cosmology have evidence to indicate it is some sort of Purgatory or inbetween place, Possibly built by Fallen Angels because they don't know where souls truly are destined for after they die. The Labyrinth very much is full of Tortured souls smacking each other Around, and Demongods exist with multiple hells like the Thousand Hells of Yomi were the Wan Kuei escape from. Malfeas very much is a super hell, bleeding into the Labyrinth in some layers, and the Abyss were the Fallen Angels are imprisoned is like a Superhell made for Demons, and they get to occasionally snatch up nearby Souls.

                          So perhaps Outside of the Middle Kingdom Cainites are destined for something Akin to the Thousand Hells, or maybe due to their divine curse they actually go directly to the layer of the Labyrinth were the Fallen Angels can torment them in their blind flailing.

                          But yeah there VERY much are worse places then the plain Jane Underworld. Hell the Jade Kingdom even made their own Hell and hired the oldest Ghost they could find to run it as an official death god.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                            Or they just go to heaven(?), like every other human eventually does. Remember, that Underworld is hell. There is no special super hell with demons poking you with pitchforks. Wraiths are in hell and solving their problem lets them move on.
                            As stated above, WoD has many hells. And yes, things aren't exactly peachy for Wraiths, but they go to this "hell" because they need to stick around to finish some business and have strong will. That kind of precludes The Underworld being hell.

                            One (very dark) take is that Spirits are obliterated when they reach Oblivion, and this applies to everything. All Vampires, humans and others go into Oblivion and their souls are simply destroyed and recycled. Vampires and Wraiths simply mean souls are held out of Oblivion's reach for a LONG time, and this results in imbalance in the Triat if you want to go full crossover.

                            Oblivion, The Grandmother and The Wyrm are the same thing being seen through different Paradigms. Souls arising anew is the work of the Wyld, and these souls produce order in life. Some powerful Spirits tried to tend to the natural order of things, and we get Fera. Some tried to stop Oblivion (this could be the Weaver, or the birth of the Cainite race) and we got the Wyrm going insane and consuming itself in madness.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              Possibly built by Fallen Angels because they don't know where souls truly are destined for after they die.
                              Underworld being built by the Fallen is explicitly canon in DtF. However, it was built as a hideout for souls to keep them from being intercepted by God's Halaku and being carried somewhere they can't reach.

                              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                              Oblivion, The Grandmother and The Wyrm are the same thing being seen through different Paradigms. Souls arising anew is the work of the Wyld, and these souls produce order in life. Some powerful Spirits tried to tend to the natural order of things, and we get Fera. Some tried to stop Oblivion (this could be the Weaver, or the birth of the Cainite race) and we got the Wyrm going insane and consuming itself in madness.
                              That's your home canon as none of this is confirmed in the actual canon.
                              Last edited by Kammerer; 02-03-2017, 06:49 PM.

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