Separating Rituals from Disciplines

[Cadmiumcadamium]

This is something i've been thinking about for a while. How about, for V5, White Wolf decides to separate Rituals from Thaum, Akhu, etc and just have them functioning like Sabbat Ritae or Werewolf Rites. That is, stand alone powers that everyone can potentially learn. This means that you don't need to know Thaumaturgy 5 to learn how to do a Blood Contract (though a mechanic that makes things cheaper for blood mages isn't impossible). It also means that a neonate can pick up a few tricks without requiring him to learn an entire Discipline.

It can even be translated into mortal society where hunters learn a trick or two to combat the vampire menace easier.

What do you think? Should Rituals be separated or stay as they are?

[Heavy Arms]

I think I like the VtR method a bit more of Ritual Only Disciplines for this stuff. It's a bit more like WtA Rites in that regard. Vampire rituals are, generally, good enough that I'm not sure not having something that caps them is good. You can dump the bajllion Paths of Thaum/etc. and just have a Blood Sorcery Discipline. Maybe have it offer a bit more than free rituals, and lifting your cap at each dot, but it seems like it would be better than just, "buy whatever rituals you manage to get access to in-game."

[Cadmiumcadamium]

The reason why i feel the need to separate them is i like how it's done in shows like supernatural. Where a person can learn one specific rituals without learning the whole framework of the Discipline itself. They do it by rote, like as if they were reading from a paper. That's is how i want rituals to be. A set of instructions to produce an effect. No need to learn all the theories behind it etc.

[Chris Wilson]

I like the idea of separating rituals from Disciplines. A Tremere could sell a ritual without risking all the secrets of House and Clan. The Trimira of India would be an ideal example where this could be useful. A Koldun could enhance the skills of a revanent servant without creating something to powerful to control. My only worry about separating rituals from Disciplines is that you would also be separating the rituals from their associated paradigms. Although most rituals can be used by any of the various blood sorcery Disciplines there are some that are specific to the paradigms of Thaum, Koldun and Dur-An-Ki. These rituals really should be kept separate and connected to the Disciplines they originate from. In part for me its about maintaining the flavour of the various Blood Sorceries even though the rules for the most part are identical.

My only real concern would be game balance. Would separating rituals from their associated discipline make them too powerful? Would rituals then become too prolific beyond the clan of origin? Would that matter?

[Aya Tari]

I think that it would imbalance the game. Rituals, unlike Rites, can potentially do anything and, by binding them to a Discipline, you cap the potential damage. Right now, if Kindred want a level 5 Ritual, they have to learn a level 5 Discipline. If you broke that relationship, what prevents Ghouls from learning and using level 5 Rituals?

Now, it may be worthwhile to have a Discipline called Ritual Magic that gives access to all of the Rituals of a particular paradigm. Instead of having any spells, you would have access to all of the commonly known Rituals of your paradigm and could learn or create new Rituals. You could not develop Paths off Ritual Magic, but it would still be a powerful Discipline.

[Eldagusto]

So this would make Rituals, the Vampire Magic, like the Kindred of the East Magic System.

This also Neuters Thaumaturgy as Ritual is the true potence of Sorcery.

[Caitiff Primogen]

This also Neuters Thaumaturgy as Ritual is the true potence of Sorcery.

Let's be real though, does Thaumaturgy need to have all the paths and all the rituals? It's already the Swiss Army Discipline, and arguably still would be even if you broke rituals away from it.

[Eldagusto]

But Rituals are the beef of the discipline. If you take them out then it doesn't go past 5. And now every single vampire can learn magic without a discipline, so every elder or Methuselah could know world bending magic.

[Caitiff Primogen]

so every elder or Methuselah could know world bending magic.

There's no reason they can't already. Elders and Metheselah shouldn't be our yardstick.

My solution. Make Rituals a Background. Have it scale the number and level of rituals you can know. Thaumaturgists can take it as easily as anyone else, but it isn't their purview exclusively. If someone wants to go all-in on being "the ritual guy" there can be a Ritual Master merit that expands the number you can know and gives you bonuses to performing them.

[Telgar]

If you charge XP for Rituals, then this works perfectly. Charge Level x 5/6/7 XP per Ritual level. A level 1 Ritual costs 5-7 XP, a level 5 Ritual costs 25-30 XP. Mandate that Rituals can't be learned beyond your Generation cap, if you want. No Ghouls learning level 5 Rituals.

This is how I run Thaumaturgy in my games. Each Path and each Ritual is completely independent. Just because someone knows how to summon ghosts, it doesn't mean they know how to throw fire. Just because someone can write a Blood Contract, it doesn't mean they can cast a Ward vs Cainites. Even whippersnapper neonates can learn to ward their havens against sunlight, and even a street punk can trade a favor to learn how to brew blood-beer if he wants a buzz.

[Aleph]

I like the idea of separating rituals from Disciplines. A Tremere could sell a ritual without risking all the secrets of House and Clan. The Trimira of India would be an ideal example where this could be useful. A Koldun could enhance the skills of a revanent servant without creating something to powerful to control. My only worry about separating rituals from Disciplines is that you would also be separating the rituals from their associated paradigms. Although most rituals can be used by any of the various blood sorcery Disciplines there are some that are specific to the paradigms of Thaum, Koldun and Dur-An-Ki. These rituals really should be kept separate and connected to the Disciplines they originate from. In part for me its about maintaining the flavour of the various Blood Sorceries even though the rules for the most part are identical.

What if, as far as Rituals are concerned, Thaumaturgy, Dur-An-Ki, Koldun and all the "paradigms" were Skills?.

That way:

1º It limits (but not that much) how easy it's to access rituals of a given level. It costs experience (not much) and only Elders can access Elder level rituals.

2º It makes harder to learn rituals from another paradigm, because to do so you need to know the principles of that paradigm (aka, learn the Skill). That way we can save the flavor without creating much restrictions.

A Background could determine how many rituals a character has in the begining (like in Werewolf) and/or they could cost experience to learn (like in Demon)

[Aya Tari]

If you charge XP for Rituals, then this works perfectly. Charge Level x 5/6/7 XP per Ritual level. A level 1 Ritual costs 5-7 XP, a level 5 Ritual costs 25-30 XP. Mandate that Rituals can't be learned beyond your Generation cap, if you want. No Ghouls learning level 5 Rituals.

This is how I run Thaumaturgy in my games. Each Path and each Ritual is completely independent. Just because someone knows how to summon ghosts, it doesn't mean they know how to throw fire. Just because someone can write a Blood Contract, it doesn't mean they can cast a Ward vs Cainites. Even whippersnapper neonates can learn to ward their havens against sunlight, and even a street punk can trade a favor to learn how to brew blood-beer if he wants a buzz.

Yikes! That is a heck of an XP inflation. I think that the base rules suggest (Ritual Level) in XP if you charge XP for them, so making them as expensive as Disciplines seems to be a bit much.

[Telgar]

Why? They're as powerful as Discipline abilities are, if not more. They should cost as much.

[Aya Tari]

Not really, they take much longer to perform.

[Telgar]

Some Disciplines take quite a long time to perform. Astral Projection, Conditioning, etc.