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Separating Rituals from Disciplines

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  • #31
    Starting by saying I agree (in principle) with Telgar and Cadmiumcadamium
    I've always found it silly that Rituals don't cost XP since they end up being a large part of why Thaum is so ridiculously powerful.

    Originally posted by Cadmiumcadamium View Post
    I agree that there should be an XP cost to Rituals but i wouldn't give it the same cost as Disciplines. Perhaps Level x 4. I like the idea of tying rituals to a certain ability (though i'd say Knowledge instead of Skill). So that all rituals roll Attribute+Thaumaturgy for Tremere rituals, Attribute+Koldunism for Koldunic Sorcery etc. I also like the idea of tying the actual amount of rituals that you know to a Background. So for me it would look something like this. Though i still think you should be able to learn Blood Contract without knowing any lower level rituals.

    This Background represents how many rituals of you group (Sect, Clan, etc) that you know at the beginning of the game and the highest level ritual that you start with. The amount of rituals known can be increased by time learning and experience.
    Each dot in this Background gives an amount of "ritual points" equal to it's number squared. These ritual points can be used to buy rituals at a cost of the rituals level times 1. So at 5 dots, you can buy either 5 lvl 5s, 25 lvl 1s or any combination of rituals at levels 1-5.
    1 - 1 Point
    2 - 4 Points
    3 - 9 Points
    4 - 16 Points
    5 - 25 Points

    Another though. Should Paths be divided up as well. Meaning that you don't need Theft of Vitae to learn Blood Boil. Sort of making them freeform Discipline powers or instant effect rituals.
    I like the system in general. I think I would reduce the amount of Rituals per background point though. I think the Werewolf setup of 1 background point per level is probably fine. If for some reason I thought that was too low for a character after playtesting it, I might double it, but I don't think I'd go higher than that.

    For the XP costs for learning Rituals, maybe x3 if it's in clan and x4 or x5 for out of clan would work. I'd have to test it out and see.


    • #32
      But there is no corresponding XP costs for Fera to learn Rites. A Ritual Background is acceptable though.


      • #33
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        But there is no corresponding XP costs for Fera to learn Rites. A Ritual Background is acceptable though.
        That is more an argument to change for Rites then, imo.

        But honestly, I'm not worried about cross game balance. This seems more to be about balance within a Vampire game. It's just taking some inspiration from another game.
        Last edited by idpersona; 02-09-2017, 02:18 PM.


        • #34
          Originally posted by Telgar View Post
          We're going to have to disagree there. There's no Discipline that does anything even remotely like Ward vs [Splat], Defense of the Sacred Haven, Pavis of Foul Presence, Blood Contract, Sanguineous Phial, Engaging the Vessel of Transference... most Rituals can't be replicated by any Discipline at all. They perform functions entirely outside the purview of Disciplines.

          You're asking why anyone would buy alcohol when they could buy water instead.
          I second you on this Telgar, especially verses creating a discipline which costs 10 XP per level and even normal disciplines cost 10 XP for the first level. Rituals are far and away cheaper than creating a discipline to get a particular level 3 power.


          • #35
            Backgrounds are also free in RAW, which I disagree with, too. I can sorta see why they're free but mostly not. The general excuse given is that they fluctuate during the course of the game, but many do not. Arcane, Generation, etc, don't fluctuate. And I've never personally been in a game where the ST took away a dot of Backgrounds without it being returned. If someone lost their Retainer, they got another one.

            I charge XP for backgrounds, too. I don't believe in any part of the game system being given away for free when there is an entire system designed to represent a character's efforts at improving themselves and gaining power. That's what XP is for.

            I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!


            • #36
              And if you charge XP for Backgrounds, you can always implement a version of the Sanctity of Merits rules from CofD for people concerned about fluctuating Backgrounds: if you lose them, you'll get them back overtime in Backgrounds as the story demands. Even if it's rare for it to come up in a particular game, it solves any concerns about a Retainer dying and all that XP invested being lost.


              • #37
                Well, it really depends on why the Background is lost. If it is because of ST fiat, good roleplaying, or just bad luck, then the points should be protected. If it is because of bad roleplaying or PC abuse, then the points should not be protected.


                • #38
                  Ritae are rituals unbound from disciplines. There is no reason more cannot be developed or learned by non sabbat vampires.


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                    Well, it really depends on why the Background is lost.
                    I used to be on board with this way of thinking, but I've come around to it actually being a very poor approach.

                    Trying to use the rules to punish "bad" players has, IME, always lead to rules that invariably make the game less fun for good players, and bad players will just find other ways to be bad players.

                    The rules of the game are there to support players that have bought into the game's premise and mechanical framework for implementing the premise. No rules can fix players that frequently engage in breaching of the social contract of the group. No rules can fix players that just don't buy into the game by chastising them; if you want better player buy-in make better rules not punishing rules.


                    • #40
                      I do not agree, I always feel like a carrot-and-stick approach works better than all carrots or all sticks. If players betray their Allies and Contacts, they should lose them. If players liquidate their Resources and go to Los Vegas, they should lose them. If players use their Talismans as collateral for a loan and decide to forfeit the loan, they should lose them. If players choose to do stupid things, they should accept the consequences, especially since I always warn them of the potential consequences beforehand.


                      • #41
                        Except the issue is not "the Character should lose the Backgrounds," but whether or not the player should lose the metagame resource (creation points/XP); esp. in the light of requiring players to spend XP on Backgrounds.

                        "Bad roleplaying" and "PC abuse" are not stuff you can stop with any amount of carrots and sticks. Putting lost Background dots into a pool that you can use to buy new Backgrounds overtime is both a carrot and a stick, because if the character is dumb with their stuff, they can lose it, but the player can be sure they'll get something back for it. If anything, this encourages better role-playing because putting your Backgrounds at risk doesn't come with being permanently behind everyone that always plays it safe.


                        • #42
                          I know that in games where poor choices when using a resource paid for with XP run the risk of that XP being lost to the void forever, I'm super conservative with even tapping them for their intended purpose, because all it takes is a series of poor rolls and even a safe bet becomes very risky. If I know that, even if I loose the resource, I can re-allocate the xp used to buy what was lost towards something else, I'm 100% more likely to try stuff out.

                          When one is accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression.