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Alternate rules on Celerity

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  • Alternate rules on Celerity

    I know this topic has been done before but I need a fresh take. Plus the old threads are buried in the forums and I haven't been able to find them, there's another thread that's fresh which is about the use of celerity and potence but it mostly focuses on blood expenditure.

    I want to tone down celerity, it's too powerful for my liking, even with the V20 rule shift where it's "extra turns cost one blood each."

    I like the BNS LARP rules (By Night Studios), I'm a LARP player, it's what I know (though I'm now running tabletop). In LARP, Celerity always costs one blood, at level 3 it gives you 1 extra turn, at level 5 it gives you 2 extra turns.

    The problem is, levels 1, 2 and 4 give you some other bonuses that are hard to replicate in the tabletop system as they are designed for the LARP rules.

    I figured the solution was to have an optional system in which we treat celerity like potence except that you can use it to buy extra turns at levels 3 and 5 AS WELL AS using it to buy one auto success per dot for one point of blood (as per potence)

    This means you could also buy 3 auto successes on a Dexterity roll with celerity 3 or buy 1 extra turn and with level 5, you could buy 5 auto successes or 2 extra turns

    Celerity would still give you 1 extra dexterity die per dot as per the standard rules.

    The problem is, this makes celerity pretty damn lack luster at levels 1 and 2, it's either a building block until level 3 when it gets good (3 auto successes is finally worth it and so is one extra turn) or I tweak it.

    I thought about tweaking it with this system instead.

    level 1 gives 2 auto successes.
    Level 2 gives 4 auto successes.
    Level 3 gives 1 extra action
    Level 4 gives 6 auto successes.
    Level 5 gives 2 extra actions

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Zennis; 02-07-2017, 05:26 AM.

  • #2
    Auto Successes are if you spend blood? How much blood does it cost to get the extra actions?

    And the issue with Auto Successes on a Dexterity roll is that your roll could be tying a shoelace or throwing a dart at a robin in a sandstorm.

    My system would be:

    1: +1 die to Dexterity, -1 difficulty to Dexterity rolls outside of combat
    2: +2 dice to Dexterity, Can spend 1 BP for a second action
    3: +3 dice to Dexterity, -2 difficulty to Dexterity rolls outside of combat
    4: +4 dice to Dexterity, Can spend 2 BP for a second and third action
    5: +5 dice to Dexterity, -1 difficulty to Dexterity rolls in combat, -3 difficulty to Dexterity rolls outside of combat

    So at Dexterity 5 you can tightrope effortlessly and have a significant edge in combat... but I feel like I might have made it more powerful if anything haha.

    Comment


    • #3
      Alternatively, Benefits of Celerity...

      1: Each level grants a die to All Dexterity rolls
      2: Each level passively adds to your Free Movement in a turn
      3: By spending a point of blood you can multiply your movement speed by 1+Celerity for a turn

      At levels 1, 3 and 5 the difficulties of Dexterity rolls outside of combat are reduced by 1, making climbing, jumping, dancing, painting, tying and operating much easier. At level 2 you can ignore a single 1 on all Dexterity rolls, and at level 4 you can re-roll your 1s.

      Comment


      • #4
        My perspective is that each level of Celerity should give a passive +1 Dexterity. When activated (one blood pool per turn), the Dexterity bonus is transformed into a movement multiplier (equal to Level+1) and their enemies suffer an offensive success penalty equal to (Level) when attacking a Kindred with activated Celerity and a defensive success penalty equal to (Level) when defending against a Kindred with activated Celerity, as the Kindred is moving too fast to properly attack or to properly defend against (if multiple Kindred activate Celerity during the same turn, they would suffer offensive and defensive success penalties equal to the difference in Celerity). Kindred with Celerity 5 would normally get +5 Dexterity but, when they spend one blood pool per turn, would increase their movement by sixfold and would impose an offensive and defensive penalty on their opponents equal to five successes.

        Comment


        • #5
          In previous games, I've ruled Celerity actions can only be defensive in nature (dodging, parrying, running, etc.), but allowed players to spend blood on Celerity actions as needed as opposed to up front at the start of the round. That works pretty well for balancing the discipline.

          I've also always frowned upon players declaring multiple actions in the same round(s) they use Celerity actions, as well.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think Celerity's uber-power is a symptom, not the cause. The cause is that the core system should make simple (not free, but simple) for any human to make 2 actions each turn. This "little" change suddenly re-balances Celerity, Garou's Rage, Quicksilver, and any other "lot-of-actions-in-a-turn" power.

            Take Celerity 1 and compare with ANY level 1 Discipline, and you'll see why I house-rule the core multiple actions system.

            Comment


            • #7
              Anything that increases your action economy is always going to be very strong in any game system, unless it has some particularly severe trade-offs. That said Timecrafter, you are correct that the root of the problem is more the core multiple action rules, which Celerity merely aggravates. That's why any good Celerity fix needs to address those rules first, and Celerity itself second. This also makes it easier to adjust the balance between characters that have Celerity and those that do not, since it gives you more axes on which to do so. Below are the rules that i came up with and my group refined taking that approach. They seem to work pretty well, making Celerity very effective but not absolutely vital in combat.

              Multiple Actions: The first time a character has the opportunity to act in a combat round (including being attacked), they can choose to take multiple actions or just one. One action lets you use your normal die pools at regular difficulties, while taking multiple actions adds +1 difficulty to all actions in the round, with a -2 die pool penalty to the first action, and an additional -1 die for each action after the first. Without celerity, only one action may be an offensive action.

              Celerity: The Discipline gives a passive bonus to initiative and movement equal to dots in Celerity. A player may spend 1 blood per turn to get ranks in Celerity in most dexterity checks (GM discretion based on if speed would be useful) and perform multiple actions without the +1 difficulty penalty up to ranks in Celerity. Additional actions taken past that accrue the normal +1 difficulty penalty. The die penalty remains. You get additional attack actions at the odd numbered dots, so up to two attacks at 1 dot, up to three at 3 dots, up to four attacks at 5 dots, and so on.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lys View Post
                Anything that increases your action economy is always going to be very strong in any game system, unless it has some particularly severe trade-offs. That said Timecrafter, you are correct that the root of the problem is more the core multiple action rules, which Celerity merely aggravates. That's why any good Celerity fix needs to address those rules first, and Celerity itself second. This also makes it easier to adjust the balance between characters that have Celerity and those that do not, since it gives you more axes on which to do so. Below are the rules that i came up with and my group refined taking that approach. They seem to work pretty well, making Celerity very effective but not absolutely vital in combat.

                Multiple Actions: The first time a character has the opportunity to act in a combat round (including being attacked), they can choose to take multiple actions or just one. One action lets you use your normal die pools at regular difficulties, while taking multiple actions adds +1 difficulty to all actions in the round, with a -2 die pool penalty to the first action, and an additional -1 die for each action after the first. Without celerity, only one action may be an offensive action.

                Celerity: The Discipline gives a passive bonus to initiative and movement equal to dots in Celerity. A player may spend 1 blood per turn to get ranks in Celerity in most dexterity checks (GM discretion based on if speed would be useful) and perform multiple actions without the +1 difficulty penalty up to ranks in Celerity. Additional actions taken past that accrue the normal +1 difficulty penalty. The die penalty remains. You get additional attack actions at the odd numbered dots, so up to two attacks at 1 dot, up to three at 3 dots, up to four attacks at 5 dots, and so on.
                For combat-heavy games this is a great system. In games where combat is the thing which happens when social, political, investigative and mystical means have all failed, I think the normal system works. I'm going to run a Victorian Toreador game which is going to be somewhat like Mean Girls meets Charles Dickens (starting in about a year's time, but people are already helping to build the world, map and characters, for example one of my players is really experienced and she's playing a Rafastio who embraced her son, but she had Infertile Vitae and the son died, so her clan-mates repressed the memories using Dominate 3 and she resurrected her son as a Zombie, programmed to act out his final day of life every day, and she checks on him every evening when she rises and tucks this zombie in, she has absolutely zero clue in character). Such a game doesn't need carefully balanced, complicated Celerity powers, while my current game (a group of Anarchs trying to tear down the Camarilla in modern Manchester) would definitely benefit from them.
                Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-02-2017, 06:42 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                  For combat-heavy games this is a great system. In games where combat is the thing which happens when social, political, investigative and mystical means have all failed, I think the normal system works. I'm going to run a Victorian Toreador game which is going to be somewhat like Mean Girls meets Charles Dickens (starting in about a year's time, but people are already helping to build the world, map and characters, for example one of my players is really experienced and she's playing a Rafastio who embraced her son, but she had Infertile Vitae and the son died, so her clan-mates repressed the memories using Dominate 3 and she resurrected her son as a Zombie, programmed to act out his final day of life every day, and she checks on him every evening when she rises and tucks this zombie in, she has absolutely zero clue in character). Such a game doesn't need carefully balanced, complicated Celerity powers, while my current game (a group of Anarchs trying to tear down the Camarilla in modern Manchester) would definitely benefit from them.
                  That is some awesomely sick and twisted shit, it's a little over the top for my tastes but I love it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zennis View Post

                    That is some awesomely sick and twisted shit, it's a little over the top for my tastes but I love it.
                    Haha, it gets darker. Her protegee, a Rosselini (I meant Rosselini earlier, Rafastio are witches and can't become Vampires) knows that the son is dead but keeps quiet about it to spare her feelings. She only learns the Spiritual arts of Necromancy, and she actively dislikes "physical" necromancy, and the secret reason is the whole Zombie Cousin thing. She's Appearance 5, most eligible deb in London, and she's been refusing the PC's embrace for 10 years using various excuses "I want to turn 21 physically first", "oh, I want to eat at the Palace first", "oh, I'd like to court Joseph a tad longer". She knows that her mentor's embrace will kill her, so she's stalling for time. There's a gravestone in the back garden for the Son, but it's been kicked over with Potence and is facing the wrong way up to be read, and if someone were to read it they'd see his name. She brags about her son all of the time, his important work in the city, how much of a darling he is to the ladies, how wonderful a Childe he will make some day...

                    For bonus points, the PC has a level 5 Momento de Muerte which is a cane. The cane looks like ivory, but it's her Brother. He tried to rebel against the Giovanni, the way the Giovanni rebelled against the Cappadocians, and she betrayed him. Augustus crafted him into a cane for her as a gift, hence her obscene wealth and her being in charge of London's Giovanni. I wanted the game to be about established social forces, an older Ancilla / young Elder game.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                      For combat-heavy games this is a great system. In games where combat is the thing which happens when social, political, investigative and mystical means have all failed, I think the normal system works.
                      In my experience it's the other way around. The stronger combat is an option, the more tempting it is to use it as a solution to all your problems. In order for violence to be a last resort, combat needs to be risky, dangerous, and unpredictable. If Celerity is so strong it turns its user into an invincible blender, then combat becomes a much less risky proportion, and therefore and much more attractive. So balancing Celerity is key to not having a combat heavy game.

                      In the Dark Ages game i played, we tended to avoid violent solutions to problems unless we had an overwhelming advantage, and could mitigate the political fallout. Fair fights only happened when our opponents gave us no choice. To illustrate, in one and a half years of playing weekly, my Toreador participated in seven fights. In two of those fights she had a hundreds of armed men backing her up, in another two she had a squad of Nosferatu Knights, and on a fifth she was fighting an angry Wraith. In none of those occasions did she draw her dagger, let alone use Celerity. The remaining two involved a gang of Malkavian flagellants who both times manage to outwit my Toreador and forced her to dirty her hands with their foul blood. If Celerity were as powerful as it was in, say, Revised Edition, she would not have been so reluctant to resort to her blade.

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                      • #12
                        I played in a couple games with Telgar and we used his version of Celerity http://wiki.stryck.com/WoD/Celerity It should also be said that Potence and Fortitude both are similarly adjusted into a 5-power setup like the other disciplines.


                        When one is accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zennis View Post
                          I know this topic has been done before but I need a fresh take. Plus the old threads are buried in the forums and I haven't been able to find them, there's another thread that's fresh which is about the use of celerity and potence but it mostly focuses on blood expenditure.

                          I want to tone down celerity, it's too powerful for my liking, even with the V20 rule shift where it's "extra turns cost one blood each."

                          I like the BNS LARP rules (By Night Studios), I'm a LARP player, it's what I know (though I'm now running tabletop). In LARP, Celerity always costs one blood, at level 3 it gives you 1 extra turn, at level 5 it gives you 2 extra turns.

                          The problem is, levels 1, 2 and 4 give you some other bonuses that are hard to replicate in the tabletop system as they are designed for the LARP rules.

                          I figured the solution was to have an optional system in which we treat celerity like potence except that you can use it to buy extra turns at levels 3 and 5 AS WELL AS using it to buy one auto success per dot for one point of blood (as per potence)

                          This means you could also buy 3 auto successes on a Dexterity roll with celerity 3 or buy 1 extra turn and with level 5, you could buy 5 auto successes or 2 extra turns

                          Celerity would still give you 1 extra dexterity die per dot as per the standard rules.

                          The problem is, this makes celerity pretty damn lack luster at levels 1 and 2, it's either a building block until level 3 when it gets good (3 auto successes is finally worth it and so is one extra turn) or I tweak it.

                          I thought about tweaking it with this system instead.

                          level 1 gives 2 auto successes.
                          Level 2 gives 4 auto successes.
                          Level 3 gives 1 extra action
                          Level 4 gives 6 auto successes.
                          Level 5 gives 2 extra actions

                          Thoughts?

                          It's not *that* hard to convert over BNS Celerity.

                          1) +dots in Celerity to Initiative converts over directly with no difficulty.

                          2) The bonus to not be crit/crit at range doesn't convert neatly, but focusing on the spirit of the rule gives you a small semi-static bonus to both offense and defense (perhaps 2?).

                          4) Again, not a neat conversion, but +2 to Dodge and a bonus to ranged weapon damage seems simple enough to convert over.


                          Then again, I'd rather run MET than tabletop rules even for a tabletop game, so maybe slightly biased. (Just mine the VTM books for lore, replace RPS with a single die, and move on)

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                          • #14
                            I've toyed with a few different things, but the one I like the most simply changes the cost, leaving the Discipline the same as written, otherwise.

                            Essentially, when you first activate it, it costs you 1 BP for each level you want to activate, and this can go beyond your Generation Limits. Every turn after that, it cost 1 BP to maintain those extra Actions. If you stop feeding BP to it, even for 1 turn, or, if you decide you want to use more (or less) levels of Celerity than you had originally chose, you have to spend the entire new amount of BP to start the process all over again.

                            So, lets say you have a Character with 10 BP and Celerity 5.
                            They get into a fight with 3 weak mooks, and decide to activate Celerity 2. They have to spend 2 BP right then and there to get an extra 2 Actions.
                            Next round, they want to keep it up, and spend 1 more BP to keep those extra 2 actions.
                            Round #3, they are all dead, but suddenly a pack of Sabbat toughs rushes in, itching for a fight, and your character wants to put everything they have into the fight. They activate Celerity 5, spending 5 BP right then and there. Assuming the character did not feed at all in the last 2 rounds, they are down to 1 BP. Better make those actions count!!!
                            Next round, spending the last BP to get all 5 extra Actions, hope for the best. Frenzy is likely going to get this guy/gal killed.


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                            • #15
                              I would make Celerity just gives + dot to Dexterity pool with auto success by spending blood points (probably on only 1 roll in case of split dice pool), and additional actions availabable at Elder levels like +1 at 6, and another +1 at 8.

                              In that way iy would be more balanced with Fortitude & Potence

                              The main issue would then be on crossover with other extra acton givers like spending Rage

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