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Question on "Mundane/Physical" vs "Supernatural" attacks

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  • Question on "Mundane/Physical" vs "Supernatural" attacks

    Reading through some Protean powers and I've got a question.

    Mist Form: Immune to all mundane physical attacks, but not immune to supernatural attacks.
    Flesh of Marble: Half dice pools of all physical attacks, excepting Fire, Sunlight, and Supernatural attacks (exception for physical attacks caused by supernatural means, such as a rock thrown by Movement of the Mind).

    ​How do powers like these treat attacks that are both mundane and supernatural? (Claws of the Beast, a Garou's physical attacks, etc?)
    A strict reading would mean that a werewolf could claw a patch of mist to death and that seems... silly?

  • #2
    Claws of the beast, werewolf claws, vampire fangs, path of fire are all supernatural attacks. Biting and clawing misted vampire to death is legit.

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    • #3
      I would throw in things like Obtenebration and other forms of blood sorcery as well. And a werewolf is an inherently supernatural creature, so I'm not sure why using their magic claws to claw at a mist vampire is silly.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
        I would throw in things like Obtenebration and other forms of blood sorcery as well. And a werewolf is an inherently supernatural creature, so I'm not sure why using their magic claws to claw at a mist vampire is silly.
        ​Well, so I said that because you can consider a scene where a vamp is hiding out in mist form, probably to avoid dealing with the garou at all, and the wolf can walk through said mist, it's claws passing through harmlessly... But if it decides to slash them through, suddenly there is damage. It's just weird to me that a physical thing can damage an intangible thing, regardless of it's level of "supernaturalness" ya know (whereas intangible sources of supernatural damage like Thaum, Obtenebration, sunlight, fire, etc make more sense)?
        Last edited by Schwann145; 02-14-2017, 09:25 AM.

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        • #5
          I see it as more effect than source. Anything that deals aggravated damage (except for banes) is a supernatural attack. If the attack deals bashing or lethal damage, even if the attack comes from a supernatural source, it does not have the ability to attack the soul like aggravated damage, so it is not a supernatural attack.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Schwann145 View Post

            ​Well, so I said that because you can consider a scene where a vamp is hiding out in mist form, probably to avoid dealing with the garou at all, and the wolf can walk through said mist, it's claws passing through harmlessly... But if it decides to slash them through, suddenly there is damage. It's just weird to me.
            I mean, that's true of most things. You can touch someone with say, a bat, and it won't hurt them. But hitting it against their head is going to produce a different result. Just touching anything with claws isn't usually going to just cause damage versus striking with them.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
              I see it as more effect than source. Anything that deals aggravated damage (except for banes) is a supernatural attack. If the attack deals bashing or lethal damage, even if the attack comes from a supernatural source, it does not have the ability to attack the soul like aggravated damage, so it is not a supernatural attack.
              Fire deals aggravated damage but is not a supernatural attack by itself.

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              • #8
                No, but it is a bane to most supernatural creatures (it deals lethal damage to mortal creatures, V20, p. 169).
                Last edited by Aya Tari; 02-14-2017, 09:59 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                  I see it as more effect than source. Anything that deals aggravated damage (except for banes) is a supernatural attack. If the attack deals bashing or lethal damage, even if the attack comes from a supernatural source, it does not have the ability to attack the soul like aggravated damage, so it is not a supernatural attack.
                  Seems like a stretch to limit it to aggravated damage. If that's the intent, I think it should note that. But I don't think supernatural attacks should not be equated to 'supernatural attacks that also deal aggravated.'

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                  • #10
                    It is up to interpretation, but I really do not think that the plant-based attack from Hellfire should be equal in effect to a Garou claw.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      It is up to interpretation, but I really do not think that the plant-based attack from Hellfire should be equal in effect to a Garou claw.
                      I'm still not seeing how you come up with that interpretation. RAW, it just says supernatural attacks. Most Koldunism powers aren't aggravated. Are they not supernatural?
                      Last edited by Monalfie; 02-14-2017, 10:43 AM.

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                      • #12
                        If it's something a mortal can do, it's not Supernatural. If it requires a template of any kind to facilitate use, it's Supernatural.


                        When one is accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                          I would throw in things like Obtenebration and other forms of blood sorcery as well. And a werewolf is an inherently supernatural creature, so I'm not sure why using their magic claws to claw at a mist vampire is silly.
                          For starters, because in their own core rules book (W20 p. 439) fomori that can take on viscous form are immune to claw attacks. I'm going to go out on a limb and surmise that if werewolves can't physically harm something as substantial as a blob of thick ooze, waving their claws through fog isn't going to be all that effective.

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                          • #14
                            I'm with Schwann on this. Having a werewolf or gangrel claw a patch of mist to ribbons is silly to me. At my table a vampire who assumes the form of mist can expect to avoid claws, fangs and asp-tongues. Stuff like fire or magical lightning is another matter however.

                            I've always interpreted the way aggravated damage works is that it isn't the attack itself that is magical, but rather the damage it leaves. I base this on the armor-soak rules In VtM revised. For armor the Lethal soak-value applies to aggravated as well, meaning that the surface or substance being struck matters.

                            Aggravated attacks isn't like adamantium, in that it can cut through everything, including mist, to deal damage. Rather, it's that IF the attacker manages to wound his opponent, that opponent's wound will be extremely difficult to heal. Flailing your talons through a bank of mist is going to do nothing.


                            Malkavian Madness Forum - Your pbp fix. Be it nWoD, cWoD, CoC, D&D or something else entirely, come over here and get your game on

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post

                              For starters, because in their own core rules book (W20 p. 439) fomori that can take on viscous form are immune to claw attacks. I'm going to go out on a limb and surmise that if werewolves can't physically harm something as substantial as a blob of thick ooze, waving their claws through fog isn't going to be all that effective.
                              Such an assumption is completely unsubstantiated. The mist form power says that it can be harmed with magic weapons, so it can be harmed with magic weapons. A completely different power not being harmed by magic weapons doesn't change anything about mist form.

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