Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Tremere and Vicissitude

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Tremere and Vicissitude

    Hey, just wondering if it is obvious that newborn bloodline practice diablerie, why didn't they develop their flashcrafting skills and create Gargoyles instead of army of their own szlachta? And also, do the all members of Inner Council of Seven have Obeah or Valeren, what do you think, guys?
    Last edited by trueann; 02-14-2017, 07:21 AM.

  • #2
    Whether or not Diablerie gives you disciplines and if it does then which ones is completely up in the air. So there's no reason to assume that top Tremere en masse have Vicissitude or soul-rape.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by trueann View Post
      Hey, just wondering if it is obvious that newborn bloodline practice diablerie, why didn't they develop their flashcrafting skills and create Gargoyles instead of army of their own szlachta? And also, do the all members of Inner Council of Seven have Obeah or Valeren, what do you think, guys?

      1- The Tremere are infected with Vicissitude. This however, does not translate into a discipline. On the other hand, seems to me that the Thaumaturgical vocation of clan Tremere is, somehow, tied to the magical essence of Koldunic sorcery, as read in old books (despite the fact that Koldunic sorcery is not a in-clan discipline for any Tzimisce) and there is a few metaplot reasons to explain this, especialy when The Elder is waiting the right time to manifest himself (Gehenna and so on). Obviously, studying their own blood, i would not be surprised if a few Tremere were aware of this fact (and a few of them even trying to do something about it). But between the infection and it turning into a actual discipline, we have this body of metaplot to justify the lack of Vicissitude as a in-clan discipline fot the Tremere. And you really want a Clan with Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude and Auspex, don't you? LOL

      2- The Diablerie of Saulot is a imperfect one. In the sense that the soul itself was never consumed by Tremere founder. In fact, they are facing a long millenium battle to gain control of Tremere's body, which Tremere lost in the end. That said, how they would gain acess to Obeah? I would like to remember that, canon wise, not a single Diablerie completely worked. Gratiano is not a 3th generation vampire, Saulot took Tremere's body, The Elder somehow ended up in NY with the Zantosa and Capadicous turned into a wraith after a faith trip, and ended been scrud by God himself, but not by Augustus. And so on. Tremere is not a 3 Clan mix lineage.

      But you really want a Clan with Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude and Obeah as in-clan discipline, don't you? LOL
      Last edited by Felipe Moulim; 02-14-2017, 08:23 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Felipe Moulim Augustus Giovanni is in fact a 3rd gen vampire, so diablerie worked. If anything, Cappadocius becoming a wraith is an indication that diablerie does not consume the soul and that vampires are mistaken about it. Perhaps diabblerie simply provokes a limited version of sanguine animism mental disorder.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Felipe Moulim View Post

          On the other hand, seems to me that the Thaumaturgical vocation of clan Tremere is, somehow, tied to the magical essence of Koldunic sorcery, as read in old books (despite the fact that Koldunic sorcery is not a in-clan discipline for any Tzimisce) and there is a few metaplot reasons to explain this, especialy when The Elder is waiting the right time to manifest himself (Gehenna and so on).
          I'm curious what makes you come to this conclusion. I've always just been of the mindset that being a group of Awakened mages and their intense study cultivated the aptitude. Not any connection to Koldunism.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
            Felipe Moulim Augustus Giovanni is in fact a 3rd gen vampire, so diablerie worked. If anything, Cappadocius becoming a wraith is an indication that diablerie does not consume the soul and that vampires are mistaken about it. Perhaps diabblerie simply provokes a limited version of sanguine animism mental disorder.

            Turning into a 3th generation did not granted Augustus the full power of a 3th generation vampire, he is somehow, stuck in between. This is Canon and can be read in Giovanni second edition clanbook. In fact, Augustus send his son to find a way to complete the Diablerie, which ended with the death of the second in the hands of his father. And Capadocius' (and Japhe's) soul were protected by a ritual and scaped to the Shadowlands in the body of doves, as you can read in GC I. It's just another example of an imperfect Diablerie, nothing more.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
              I'm curious what makes you come to this conclusion. I've always just been of the mindset that being a group of Awakened mages and their intense study cultivated the aptitude. Not any connection to Koldunism.

              I would say, both things. About the question, the tips along Tzimisce clanbook second edition and Libellus Sanguinis. Tremere mortal magi were from Kupala's land as well. And some Tzimisce DO, indeed, make a far long connection between this two things.
              Last edited by Felipe Moulim; 02-14-2017, 08:43 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                Whether or not Diablerie gives you disciplines and if it does then which ones is completely up in the air. So there's no reason to assume that top Tremere en masse have Vicissitude or soul-rape.
                Yes, en masse, but don't even three Vicissitude masters enough for creating an army?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Felipe Moulim View Post


                  1- The Tremere are infected with Vicissitude. This however, does not translate into a discipline. On the other hand, seems to me that the Thaumaturgical vocation of clan Tremere is, somehow, tied to the magical essence of Koldunic sorcery, as read in old books (despite the fact that Koldunic sorcery is not a in-clan discipline for any Tzimisce) and there is a few metaplot reasons to explain this, especialy when The Elder is waiting the right time to manifest himself (Gehenna and so on). Obviously, studying their own blood, i would not be surprised if a few Tremere were aware of this fact (and a few of them even trying to do something about it). But between the infection and it turning into a actual discipline, we have this body of metaplot to justify the lack of Vicissitude as a in-clan discipline fot the Tremere. And you really want a Clan with Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude and Auspex, don't you? LOL

                  2- The Diablerie of Saulot is a imperfect one. In the sense that the soul itself was never consumed by Tremere founder. In fact, they are facing a long millenium battle to gain control of Tremere's body, which Tremere lost in the end. That said, how they would gain acess to Obeah? I would like to remember that, canon wise, not a single Diablerie completely worked. Gratiano is not a 3th generation vampire, Saulot took Tremere's body, The Elder somehow ended up in NY with the Zantosa and Capadicous turned into a wraith after a faith trip, and ended been scrud by God himself, but not by Augustus. And so on. Tremere is not a 3 Clan mix lineage.

                  But you really want a Clan with Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude and Obeah as in-clan discipline, don't you? LOL

                  No, I don't want a Clan with Thaumaturgy, Vicissitude and Obeah, just wondering

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Felipe Moulim View Post

                    I would say, both things. About the question, the tips along Tzimisce clanbook second edition and Libellus Sanguinis. Tremere mortal magi were from Kupala's land as well. And some Tzimisce DO, indeed, make a far long connection between this two things.
                    Just seems like dubious Tzimisce claims at best. Considering the Tremere knew magic well enough pre-embrace and their magic doesn't even fit a similar paradigm of heremtic versus spiritual. V20 seems fairly clear to me that it is what they knew adapted to using vitae.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yea, the Tremere were Mages who belonged to the Hermetic Tradition and decided that being Kindred was preferable to dying of old age. Their alchemy removed any Clan specific aspects of the stolen blood, though the later mass diablerie of the Salubri added in more than enough of their blood to contaminate the entire Clan. And I am pretty sure that the Tremere destroy any members who manifests Obeah, for fear of the resurrection of the Salubri.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        Yea, the Tremere were Mages who belonged to the Hermetic Tradition and decided that being Kindred was preferable to dying of old age. Their alchemy removed any Clan specific aspects of the stolen blood, though the later mass diablerie of the Salubri added in more than enough of their blood to contaminate the entire Clan. And I am pretty sure that the Tremere destroy any members who manifests Obeah, for fear of the resurrection of the Salubri.
                        Yes, at first they don't have Vicissitude and Valeren, but original members diablerized their way to 4th generation on salubri and tzimisce vampires.
                        Last edited by trueann; 02-15-2017, 02:59 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Actually, some Tremere do have Vicissitude as an in-Clan Discipline. "Natural Vicissitude" was a Tremere-only merit back in Libellus Sanguinis 2. It swapped out Dominate for Vicissitude. So, there are Tremere with Vicissitude as an in-Clan Discipline, and possibly a fair number of them. But they never created their own hordes of flesh-crafted monsters because plot. If the Tremere made heavy use of Vicissitude, it would make the Tzimisce less unique in the setting.


                          I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I mean I'd assume that a lot of the residual skill with Vicissitude was devoted towards developing the Gargoyles and Homicunculi and other servants of a mystical-but-not-summoned bent. The leadership probably wanted a more 'refined' class of battle thrall than just fleshwarping mortals into monsters, and they probably figured that rubbing the other clan's faces in the fact that they were a clan of blood thieves more than they already were would be pushing boundaries that didn't need to be pushed. Once they unwrapped the principals for their delicious ritual candy made from the part of the Discipline they collectively wanted from the icky Vicissitude wrapper they came in, the clan largely just stopped practicing the discipline.


                            When one is accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes, who really wants to be exposed to something that appears to be a mystical disease? I mean, there are Tzimisce that refuse to learn Vicissitude.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X