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Tremere and Vicissitude

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
    Just seems like dubious Tzimisce claims at best...
    It's actually way, way, more than that. House of Tremere goes into deeper, more exacting detail, especially combined with Transylvania by Night and Transylvania Chronicles material.

    Ceoris sits on one of the nodes in the ley line network in Transylvania that forms the source of Kupala's power. Kupala manipulated the Tremere through dreams and messages to consecrate and build Ceoris, and Kupala is the primary suspect for being Goratrix's source for the ritual to turn himself, the rest of the Council, and Tremere himself into vampires.

    In Transylvania Chronicles this is further substantiated, as Ceoris is one of the locations Zelios needs inscribed with his sigils, to form the geomantic web which binds Kupala.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

      It's actually way, way, more than that. House of Tremere goes into deeper, more exacting detail, especially combined with Transylvania by Night and Transylvania Chronicles material.

      Ceoris sits on one of the nodes in the ley line network in Transylvania that forms the source of Kupala's power. Kupala manipulated the Tremere through dreams and messages to consecrate and build Ceoris, and Kupala is the primary suspect for being Goratrix's source for the ritual to turn himself, the rest of the Council, and Tremere himself into vampires.

      In Transylvania Chronicles this is further substantiated, as Ceoris is one of the locations Zelios needs inscribed with his sigils, to form the geomantic web which binds Kupala.
      I'm not denying Kupala has manipulated the Tremere. Just the specific claim that Thaumaturgy is inherently tied to Kupala as opposed to hermetics learning to use vitae.

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      • #18
        My reading has always been that the Tremere stole and bastardized/reverse-engineered knowledge of Koldunism to create a scaffolding upon which they could build their Hermetic sorcery-inspired Thaumaturgy.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Monalfie View Post

          I'm not denying Kupala has manipulated the Tremere. Just the specific claim that Thaumaturgy is inherently tied to Kupala as opposed to hermetics learning to use vitae.
          That makes much more sense, but to be honest I think that could be extended to every vampire bloodline or clan having a claim to how the Tremere stole their blood sorcery. Because they did.

          I think the heart of the matter is simpler: they adapted their Hermetic mortal sorcery to the blood. That's what keeps on popping up pretty much regardless of source, and even in Rites of the Blood this is substantiated under the section on (non-Tremere) Anarch blood sorcery.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

            That makes much more sense, but to be honest I think that could be extended to every vampire bloodline or clan having a claim to how the Tremere stole their blood sorcery. Because they did.

            I think the heart of the matter is simpler: they adapted their Hermetic mortal sorcery to the blood. That's what keeps on popping up pretty much regardless of source, and even in Rites of the Blood this is substantiated under the section on (non-Tremere) Anarch blood sorcery.

            Exactly. It's true that Thaumaturgy is a adaptation of hermetic principles to the blood (and the new vampire condition - extreme limitaded to the use of true magic - in general), but, on another hand, it's not just that. Much before the embrace, the destiny of House Tremere were bound to Kupala, and indeed, there is a magical connection between them and him, a mystical one. They devoted their house's future accomplishements to Kupala, one of the two rocks in which Ceoris was build (not just physically). Thaumaturgy and the use of blood (and that's the key) is bind to Kupala which is the greatest sorce of magic in Transylvania.

            That's why "the Thaumaturgical vocation of clan Tremere is, somehow, tied to the magical essence of Koldunic sorcery". which is Kupala himself.
            Last edited by Felipe Moulim; 02-19-2017, 08:43 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
              My reading has always been that the Tremere stole and bastardized/reverse-engineered knowledge of Koldunism to create a scaffolding upon which they could build their Hermetic sorcery-inspired Thaumaturgy.

              This is also, true.

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              • #22
                Another interesting question is does the whole Inner Council Of Seven develope the Salubri discipline upper then second level after all this diableries. Does that mean that all councilors have a third eye?
                Last edited by trueann; 02-18-2017, 07:14 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by trueann View Post
                  Another interesting question is does the whole Inner Council Of Seven develope the Salubri discipline upper then second level after all this diableries. Does that mean that all councilors have a third eye?
                  Probably the contrary. We know a few of them and none of them have ever been described with a 3th eye. Second point, a few of the original council members died and the spots were taken by someone else. At least, two of them, and two of the original council still unknown untill this day.


                  EDIT: Tremere himself may have a 3th eye and a lot of other bizarre things.
                  Last edited by Felipe Moulim; 02-18-2017, 07:01 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Telgar View Post
                    Actually, some Tremere do have Vicissitude as an in-Clan Discipline. "Natural Vicissitude" was a Tremere-only merit back in Libellus Sanguinis 2. It swapped out Dominate for Vicissitude. So, there are Tremere with Vicissitude as an in-Clan Discipline, and possibly a fair number of them. But they never created their own hordes of flesh-crafted monsters because plot. If the Tremere made heavy use of Vicissitude, it would make the Tzimisce less unique in the setting.
                    A line of thinking about that didn't stop every clan and bloodline from the having blood sorcery in subsequent editions


                    I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                    The Malkavian Madness Network

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Telgar View Post
                      ...But they never created their own hordes of flesh-crafted monsters...
                      Well, technically they did, just not through Vicissitude. Creating more of the like after the Gargoyles revolted, and in the height and wake of the Inquisition, would have been straight-up counterproductive. They have plenty of rituals and paths to allow them to bring up, train, and enhance perfectly Masquerade-friendly ghoul servants that, when properly equipped, would easily be the match of any szlachta.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

                        A line of thinking about that didn't stop every clan and bloodline from the having blood sorcery in subsequent editions

                        Not as many as you think. But you´re right about the line of thinking. Since i entered the forum, Telgar is like that. He drops a bomb and get out. I even called it, "Telgar solution" for a time. But this is out of topic.

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                        • #27
                          And just another question about tremere and their disciplines : if tremere be embraced spontaneously and left without teacher, he can't develop Thaumaturgy intuitively, right? So may it be said, that Tremere really have only two in-clan disciplines?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by trueann View Post
                            And just another question about tremere and their disciplines : if tremere be embraced spontaneously and left without teacher, he can't develop Thaumaturgy intuitively, right? So may it be said, that Tremere really have only two in-clan disciplines?
                            Depends on whether or not the ST says that a given character needs a teacher to develop a particular blood sorcery path. Or indeed, needs instruction to increase Discipline dots at all. Some require teaching for any non-Clan discipline. Some allow you to spontaneously develop the physical Disciplines, but need teachers for all others.

                            There's a line in the DAV20 Tome of Secrets about playing a hedge wizard or even an Awakened Mage who gets Embraced: "Upon the Embrace, Path-based and Awakened witches lose their distinct abilities, though they remain skilled occultists, and might develop blood magic counterparts — and sometimes, they don’t need teachers."

                            In answer to your question, even if the Tremere needs a tutor to learn more Thaumaturgy, it's still a Clan Discipline for them as they pay the reduced XP. And depending on whether your ST allows it or not, they might not even need a teacher. So ask your ST.


                            I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                            The Malkavian Madness Network

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                            • #29
                              If they are Embraced and abandoned, I would rule that they become Caitiff.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by trueann View Post
                                And just another question about tremere and their disciplines : if tremere be embraced spontaneously and left without teacher, he can't develop Thaumaturgy intuitively, right? So may it be said, that Tremere really have only two in-clan disciplines?

                                It is pretty much up to the ST. The way I do it, because I got sick and tired of people trying to hand in loner Tremere concepts because they want Thaum but don't want to deal with any of the downsides, is that is a unique as an in clan discipline. The Tremere are 'unnatural' vampires and so their signature discipline is artificial. It isn't as intuitive as the others, but the Tremere still have an inherent inclination for it. So you get it as a starting discipline and can learn it without a tutor, never coming into contact with another Tremere and mastering it is possible. But you pay out of clan prices to advance it and can only learn the path of blood or a very common path and no rituals.

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