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V20 Animal Ghouls?

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  • V20 Animal Ghouls?

    Are there any specific rules I need to know when creating an animal ghoul? The Core book describes Ghouls (and their creation) with the assumption that it will be a human, which 9 times out of 10 it probably is.
    ​But then there are those Gangrel, Nosferatu, etc. that are just as likely to ghoul something more feral.

  • #2
    Animal ghouls can only learn physical disciplines, that is Potence, Fortitude and Celerity. There aren't any other rules.

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    • #3
      I think that there could be a case for Animal Ghouls learning other common Disciplines, though it would probably be uncommon. A dog with Auspex or a cougar with Obfuscate would be interesting and useful.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        I think that there could be a case for Animal Ghouls learning other common Disciplines, though it would probably be uncommon. A dog with Auspex or a cougar with Obfuscate would be interesting and useful.
        Yeah -- tons of people I've known have extended "conceptual" exceptions for animal ghouls, as such is at least moderately represented in various fictions and makes sense relative to the Vampire/WoD setting (such as well-fanged and/or heavily clawed animals learning Protean:2, the aforementioned Obfuscate for a hunting cat, or Auspex for a great number of animals, etc.). And, of course, Vicissitude can potentially infect any (un)living thing... but the, Vicissitude is its own kettle of issues, isn't it...?


        I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...

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        • #5
          For animals, Protean 1 & 2 make sense, Presence 1 for some majestic creatures (felines, horses, birds), Presence 2 for many animals (if they can't have Presence 1, they can skip it. So a Boar could have Presence 2 but not Presence 1). No matter how tempted you get, NEVER get silly. Blood Magic... just no. I've never done it, but I was tempted once when a PCs freakishly mutated horse had racked up so many powers (he once inflicted 17 points of Aggravated on someone... maxed out in the relevant stats, with Specialties in Kicking, and Protean 2 hardening his hooves...) that it seemed odd that he DIDN'T have blood magic.

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          • #6
            Well, it is important to remember that Animal Ghouls have Discipline limits just like Human Ghouls. I think that it makes sense that every Kindred Clan would have selectively bred Animal Ghouls to produce Animal Revenants because of the ease of breeding certain types of animals, so I have every Clan possessing their own subspecies of Animal Revenants (cats, dogs, horses, rats, and snakes being among the most common). Of course, Animal Revenants would be more prized than Animal Ghouls because of their rarity and their utility.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
              Well, it is important to remember that Animal Ghouls have Discipline limits just like Human Ghouls. I think that it makes sense that every Kindred Clan would have selectively bred Animal Ghouls to produce Animal Revenants because of the ease of breeding certain types of animals, so I have every Clan possessing their own subspecies of Animal Revenants (cats, dogs, horses, rats, and snakes being among the most common). Of course, Animal Revenants would be more prized than Animal Ghouls because of their rarity and their utility.
              Well, yes, there are limits -- that goes without saying -- but by citing the conceptual applications of some disciplines (presuming a strong-blooded vampire), the underlying point of how/why a somewhat more broad range of Disciplines beyond the basic physical ones is valid relative to various animals on a case-by-case basis. (Note, also, that a number of people use the alternate rules for ghoul limits, wherein vampires of the 10th-8th generation can have ghoul Discipline limits of 2-3 vs. the core ranges; those alternate rules have existed in multiple editions and in multiple books/sources since the 90s.) So it's still more than valid for citation purposes.


              I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...

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              • #8
                Well, the V20 rules trump the previous editions, though it is always good to share experiences from previous editions.

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                • #9
                  What about non-Discipline related things? Building up from scratch, will a ghouled dog start with the same 13/9/5 spread that a human would even though they will never know things like how to drive or politics?

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                  • #10
                    Disciplines are a result of refining the blood to serve the will of the person driving the vampire. Animals should lack that refinement. Housecats with Presence is silly.

                    Originally posted by Schwann145 View Post
                    What about non-Discipline related things? Building up from scratch, will a ghouled dog start with the same 13/9/5 spread that a human would even though they will never know things like how to drive or politics?
                    The stats for animals are in the v20 book. Near the back I think.

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                    • #11
                      You could also look at Ascension's Right Hand, Possesed, or Unsung Heroes for animal character rules. Animals tend to have lower Ability spreads than humans because they usually live shorter lives.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        Well, the V20 rules trump the previous editions, though it is always good to share experiences from previous editions.
                        ... which is why I mentioned it... and V20 will itself be replaced in short order soon enough (time-table-wise), and that will likely include adding more optional rules that existed before -- so it's good to be prepared and mentally open/aware of those things...


                        I have been around here for waaaayyyy too fucking long...

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                        • #13
                          So a few more questions!

                          ​I'm in the process of actually putting my ghoul (a German shepherd) onto paper and I'm running into some unexplained blocks:
                          ​•Ghouled animals gain Willpower, but animal stats are listed with a Willpower value already. Do they gain extra Willpower on top of what's listed, or something else?
                          ​•Animals are not listed with Social Attributes, but it doesn't explain why. It's easy to imagine why a dog wouldn't have Manipulation, but Appearance, or even arguably Charisma? Are Social Attributes simply ignored for animals entirely?
                          ​•I assume Humanity is just totally ignored, yeah?
                          ​•What of Virtues? Are there rules for how an animal would stat Virtues?

                          Thanks!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Schwann145 View Post
                            ​I'm in the process of actually putting my ghoul (a German shepherd) onto paper and I'm running into some unexplained blocks:
                            ​•Ghouled animals gain Willpower, but animal stats are listed with a Willpower value already. Do they gain extra Willpower on top of what's listed, or something else?
                            ​•Animals are not listed with Social Attributes, but it doesn't explain why. It's easy to imagine why a dog wouldn't have Manipulation, but Appearance, or even arguably Charisma? Are Social Attributes simply ignored for animals entirely?
                            ​•I assume Humanity is just totally ignored, yeah?
                            ​•What of Virtues? Are there rules for how an animal would stat Virtues?
                            So generally for animal Ghouls, you just take that stat block and add on a dot of Potence, and that's about it. Maybe argue with the ST a bit if you've managed to find an exceptional example of the animal in question to Ghoul. So there is no bonus Willpower. What the stat block lists is what you get.
                            Yes, social attributes are generally ignored. They don't have Humanity. There aren't rules for Virtues. It doesn't usually come up.


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                            • #15
                              There's an Animal Ghoul Bestiary starting on p172 of Ghouls and Revenants which is V20 material. Here's a sample entry for Large Dog:

                              Large Dog
                              Attributes: Strength 4, Dexterity 3, Stamina 3,
                              Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
                              Abilities: Alertness 3, Athletics 3, Awareness 3,
                              Brawl 3, Empathy 2, Intimidation 2, Stealth 2, Survival
                              (Tracking) 4
                              Disciplines: Potence 1
                              Willpower: 3
                              Health Levels: OK, -1, -1, -2, -2, -5, Incapacitated
                              Armor rating: 0 (three soak dice, total)
                              Attack: Bite for five dice (lethal); claw for three dice
                              (bashing)
                              Blood Pool: 3

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