Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Spirit Manipulation - Uses of Duality?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
    If you are going by Werewolf, this is pretty much correct. But worth adding, I don't know that the initial writers of Spirit Manipulation really had the Werewolf cosmology in mind. They seemed to more just be writing cool spirit powerz.
    I mentioned it in another thread, but yeah, interactions with spirits and the Umbra in general are simplified. In the same way how Mages and Werewolves use simplified rules. I assume they had some consideration, since they mentioned Werewolves in the write-up. But it seemed quite vague. It was mostly just 'sometimes spirits pretend not to understand human languages when interacting with Vampires.' But details about the exact nature of the Umbra and how spirits innately feel about Cainites isn't fully fleshed there.

    You guys beat me to it. I don't understand why this perception keeps coming up.
    Yeah, reminds me of that 'you no put onions on burger!' Frenzy post. But the text does say, 'seeing a Vampire with a Fetish will typically cause a Werewolf to frenzy.' So it is extremely simplified.

    Comment


    • #17
      I'm no expert on on Werewolf, but I'd hazard a guess that seeing a Wyrm tainted monster carrying around an object containing a spirit it forced into servitude would make most Garou angry enough to call for a Rage check. They're the protectors of those spirits after all, and that's a pretty damn severe perversion of their purpose.

      In any case, any of the powers that reference other splats aren't going to mirror how that actual line works. Vampire games don't generally care about the specifics of the spirit world even if someone is using Spirit Manipulation, same with Necromancy and ghosts. It's a secondary concern. The line is primarily about vampires. And vampires in other lines aren't as fleshed out and don't follow the same exact rules either.

      I mean, sure, you could make it all work the same way. But I don't think anyone wants Tremere with 10 real 5th level fetishes now.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Zanos View Post
        I mean, sure, you could make it all work the same way. But I don't think anyone wants Tremere with 10 real 5th level fetishes now.
        I have seen this literal thing and it is one hundred and ten percent pure power creep jankery.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
          I have seen this literal thing and it is one hundred and ten percent pure power creep jankery.
          Do go on. I love to hear tales of extreme stupidity.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Zanos View Post
            I'm no expert on on Werewolf, but I'd hazard a guess that seeing a Wyrm tainted monster carrying around an object containing a spirit it forced into servitude would make most Garou angry enough to call for a Rage check. They're the protectors of those spirits after all, and that's a pretty damn severe perversion of their purpose.
            Garou encounter this all the time with Spirals. I would never make the argument the Garou would be happy about it, but rolling Rage (for Frenzy) means the Garou is driven to beyond the point of anger instantly by the sight of it.

            Originally posted by Zanos View Post
            But I don't think anyone wants Tremere with 10 real 5th level fetishes now.
            Having the ability to make Fetishes isn't (or shouldn't be) the same thing as making level 5 Fetishes. It's always stuck me as silly when players (and this isn't to say you are doing it, as the example seems to have been sarcastic) automatically jump to the highest end of power possible.


            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Zanos View Post
              I don't really see any other ground when the path is pretty clearly written from the perspective that in the Vampire setting spirits have an inherently and automatic antagonistic view of Kindred, and spirits aren't exactly the type of supernatural creature that respond particularly well to reasonable discourse once they hold a certain view. I guess you could Presence them, but Presence isn't really in the arsenal of most Vampires with access to Spirit Manipulation.
              Most mages don't have good relations with spirits, and most spirits don't have good relations with fera, either. In fact, when fera are concerned, the ones that have passable relations is an exorbitantly narrow swath of spirits which fall into the "not servants of the Wyrm or Weaver, that Fera haven't managed to righteously piss off to this point, yet"; even then, they have to bend over backwards to mollify and appease even the ones most inclined to help them. Taking into account the entirety of mage-dom, the swath of mages which have passable relations with spirits is even narrower. Again, what makes vampires any different, here?

              I'm guessing the reason chimminage isn't included is because it's difficult to nearly impossible for a vampire to interact peaceably with spirits. Your entire view of the path is a re-interpretation of the way the powers are actually written.
              (A) I'm acknowledging the entire point of level 2 is to be able to interact peaceably with spirits, and (B) I'm not re-interpreting it, I'm pointing out that like every other comparable power its potential use is more varied than the write-up specifies. Again, just because you can be a dick with a given discipline power does not mean you must be a dick with it. Spirit thaumaturgy is no different.

              SM 4 doesn't say you can have a discourse with a spirit to have it agree to hop in your sword, although I suppose you could convince it to not make the willpower roll.
              Why would it? That's the entire point of level 2.

              I recognized that the power has some niche uses in my original post, but the entire point of this thread is whether or not it's actually justifiable as a 5th dot path power.
              Yes, and I'm pointing out it's more versatile than initially appears, taking into account the ability of a vampire to Not Be a Dick. Just like they're capable of Not Being Dicks to literally any other form of supernatural.

              I mean, like I said, it seems very ass backwards to give the stick before the carrot. Fostering good relations is hard, as you indicate. I get your point, Duality could be good if you've fostered a good relationship. And it might help with that. It just seems an inherently better design (even if that doesn't seem to be the intent from the fluff) if it switched with three. Otherwise you are giving all these tools that seem much more likely to piss them off. Comes off as See, Speak, COMMAND, ENTRAP, Deal. I'll have to give another look at W20 core. Because it was my impression that most spirits view Vampires as Werewolves do. But this could be way off.
              I'm hesitant nowadays to participate in that aspect of discussions, but honestly if anything I'd buy swapping it with level 4, but not level 3.

              Having the ability to make Fetishes isn't (or shouldn't be) the same thing as making level 5 Fetishes. It's always stuck me as silly when players (and this isn't to say you are doing it, as the example seems to have been sarcastic) automatically jump to the highest end of power possible.
              Well, that's OPP muddying the waters by using the same terms to mean different things. Fetishes created by SM are definitely not the same as WW/Mage fetishes; they're much, much weaker.
              Last edited by Theodrim; 02-16-2017, 06:36 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                idpersona The power says that the level of the fetish is equal to the number of successes you get over the spirit with a maximum level of 5. It only adds to an associated abilities die pool normally, but if someone running a game insists on kludging the game lines together, things get wacky.

                It's much easier to just assume that what each game lines description of the other game lines is completely unrelated to the actual game line.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                  Well, that's OPP muddying the waters by using the same terms to mean different things. Fetishes created by SM are definitely not the same as WW/Mage fetishes; they're much, much weaker.
                  This was the only understanding of "Fetish level" I had, so thanks for the clarification.


                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by idpersona View Post
                    This was the only understanding of "Fetish level" I had, so thanks for the clarification.
                    Indeed. I'm sure a reasonable ST would allow wiggle room for minor abilities in lieu of dice pool bonuses (which are honestly boring, and kind of broken in their own right), but none of the two scoops of bullshit of which Mage/WW fetishes and charms (which can be powerful, but single-use, fetishes) are capable. I certainly wouldn't allow a vampire to run around with a Fire spirit-infused pistol that does aggravated damage and grants -3 difficulty to Firearms checks, for example.

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X