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  • #31
    But they do have superhuman agency. We know what human maximum can do in specific fields, but we do not know what superhuman Attributes plus superhuman Abilities can do. A character with 12 dice in a field should probably be able to have an understanding beyond a character with 10 dice in a field, and, since 10 dice is human maximum in a field, I think a character with 12 dice in a field should exceed the understanding of every human being on the Earth. .

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    • #32
      Again, that is fine in theory. The system does not bear your theory out though.

      Similarly, an Intelligence 7 Vampire should far outthink any human on Earth. But said Vampire with a couple of dots of Finance (lets say 2) will still under perform against normal humans. That's just how the system works.
      And that doesn't even address the RNG of rolling said dice pools, where your Elder Vampire can roll less successes than a theoretical 19 year old stock trader (with his maybe 4 or 5 dice pool).

      Overall though (now going back to your 12 dice pool Elder vs a 10 dice pool human), continually getting that 1 extra average success each week or month is going to see that Vampire perform far and away better than any human. And Elders have nothing but time. That's where their strength lies. It's not in being superhuman and outthinking every human ever. It's in the fact that they can average that 1 extra success continually over years or decades. That one extra success in Finance over a century or 2 is going to equal out to staggering financial control. And that control (represented by backgrounds) combined with their skill is what's going to let that Elder crush up and coming humans (or other Vampires).

      Either way. it's important (I think) to remember that the system is an abstraction that doesn't really reflect reality. So your superhuman attribute/ability Vampire can only marginally outperform a maxed out human. They make up for it though (aside from having unlimited time) in magic powers. The Vampire doesn't have to (and won't) rely on pure skill.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        But they do have superhuman agency. We know what human maximum can do in specific fields, but we do not know what superhuman Attributes plus superhuman Abilities can do. A character with 12 dice in a field should probably be able to have an understanding beyond a character with 10 dice in a field, and, since 10 dice is human maximum in a field, I think a character with 12 dice in a field should exceed the understanding of every human being on the Earth. .
        I'm not disagreeing, but again its a matter of degrees. A truly puissant elder with Att 8 Abl 8 is genuinely beyond our grasp and the gulf between them and even the greatest mortal paragon is not insignificant. Att 6 Abl 6 though, while still beyond the capabilities of mortals, is not so far beyond them that they cannot be grappled with.

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        • #34
          Sans magic somehow being incorporated into a project, the work of an Elder with 12-18 dice in a skill function is extremely good, but it's extremely good in a way that's similar to what a group of normal mortals can do. An elder with 18 dice is as good by themselves as a skilled firm of experts working together to write a contract, which I think is pretty amazing. They aren't so superior that a firm of experts can't tackle the work done by a lone elder and eventually pick it apart for the loopholes though, for that you need some kind of combo discipline or blood sorcery.


          When one is accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression.

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          • #35
            I disagree, and I think that people overestimate the effectiveness of groups. An entire college physics department working together is not going to be as effective as Einstein working alone. Yes, some tasks work better with groups, the entire industrial revolution worked because of that principle, but it is up to the ST to decide when teamwork can work (V20, p. 253).

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
              I disagree, and I think that people overestimate the effectiveness of groups. An entire college physics department working together is not going to be as effective as Einstein working alone.
              By the rules, they can be. Whether or not you support those rules is one thing. But that is how it is presented. It is a system that has to take chance into effect, even with something like mental activities.

              Yes, some tasks work better with groups, the entire industrial revolution worked because of that principle, but it is up to the ST to decide when teamwork can work (V20, p. 253).
              Yes, and it seems pretty obtuse to try and say something like business structure or physics research would not fall into that area of what is acceptable.
              Examples of what is fine in the book: Restraining a frenzied Gangrel, gathering physical resources, or doing research in the library.
              Examples of what is not fine in the book: Fast-talking or seduction.
              How the above would fall outside of teamwork is a stretch considering typically humans work in groups for those activities anyway.

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              • #37
                Well, when given the latitude to make a choice under the rules, I tend to make a choice that reflects reality, especially when it involves mortals. Under normal circumstsnces, I would just allow teamwork to reduce the time required by the number of people involved and would use the average number of successes of the participants as the result. Teamwork should generally get faster results, not better results, as skilled craftsmanship always produces better quality than mass production.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                  Well, when given the latitude to make a choice under the rules, I tend to make a choice that reflects reality, especially when it involves mortals. Under normal circumstsnces, I would just allow teamwork to reduce the time required by the number of people involved and would use the average number of successes of the participants as the result.
                  Well, typically teamwork is going to reduce time regardless since you're more likely to obtain the successes you need faster.

                  Teamwork should generally get faster results, not better results, as skilled craftsmanship always produces better quality than mass production.
                  And the problem is that this comparison isn't going to always hold true, especially not in certain fields. A skilled person will not always inherently do better than a group with less individual skill, depending on the circumstances. And the element of chance in the system only makes that more true.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                    I disagree, and I think that people overestimate the effectiveness of groups. An entire college physics department working together is not going to be as effective as Einstein working alone. .
                    I think the Manhattan Project might beg to differ.

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                    • #40
                      That was a team of hundreds of Einstein's peers, supported by over one hundred thousand physicists, engineers, technicians, etc. And they were just exploring one useful application of one of Einstein's formulas.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        That was a team of hundreds of Einstein's peers, supported by over one hundred thousand physicists, engineers, technicians, etc. And they were just exploring one useful application of one of Einstein's formulas.
                        Yet Einstein's theories were not the sole thing that made the atom bomb possible, and if we'd just asked Einstein to build an atom bomb by himself we'd have been pretty disappointed in the results.

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                        • #42
                          Probably, but that is because he lacked the time. If he had a few thousand years, he probably could have done everything by himself, but that is besides the point. The Manhattan Project was built on Einstein's theories by many people who were as intelligent and as skilled as Einstein. With teamwork, they were able to do in a few years what would have taken one of them a few thousand years (though the effort took hundreds of thousands of man-years of effort). The Manhattan project did not exceed the intellectual capabilities of Einstein (no one involved had more than ten dice), it just did it much, much faster than any one person could do.

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                          • #43
                            Einstein's theories were not the result of a particularly successful Int + Science roll, they are the basis of an arbitrary number of Int + Science rolls that are attempting to disprove them. 'E=MC2' was not hiding behind a Diff 10 roll that requires 10 successes, people throw dice at the equation in an attempt to find things that it doesn't cover because then they can try and come up with a better equation that they hope is more resilient than the one they have disproved.


                            When one is accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                              The Manhattan project did not exceed the intellectual capabilities of Einstein (no one involved had more than ten dice), it just did it much, much faster than any one person could do.
                              That isn't the point. The point is that you can't just take Einstein's theories alone and make an atom bomb with them. There is a tremendous amount of additional work that needs to be done in support of applying them to the problem, much of it outside the realm of pure physics. Einstein alone, whatever his intellectual capabilities (or dice pool), could not have accomplished that by himself. Team work creates outcomes that are greater than the sum of the individuals who contribute to them. This is a pretty foundational concept that you seem to be having a lot of difficulty with.

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                              • #45
                                >Well, when given the latitude to make a choice under the rules, I tend to make a choice that, based on personal biases, I like the most
                                There, fixed that for you, do you have to endlessly argue every single point just to get the last word?

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