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Carthage in the underworld/umbra, Possible?

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  • Carthage in the underworld/umbra, Possible?

    Has anyone realized that, maybe, Carthage is in the underworld full of DA Wraiths?
    I'm not a WtO player. Could anyone know anything about this possibility?
    Also can be in some umbral place. Also, Baali's conections could make some place into Malfeas or someplace like that.

    Or i'm wrong?


    I think the salt thing if a huge canard. I'm not sure if there's no ritual reference on whole vtm or dav to prevent vampires in topor / protean 3 to weak up. Even more, centures has passed with full angered brujas looking for their elders without results. Moreover, sowing the earth it's more a curse over new inhabitants of a conquered place stuff rather than a curse over those defeated. I think there's something hidden, and not under the earth, fisically.

    Also, there's so much passion and those stuff importart to WtO or ideas of Carthage, the perfect city of brujahs, important to umbral stuff for MtA.

    If any of this could be true, there's a possibility, they should be high enemies of the Tal'Mahe'Ra's true brujahs fighting in the same (ground?).

  • #2
    Sure, seems entirely possible it is in the underworld. I'm pretty sure there is a reference in Guide to the True Black Hand since they looked for a lot of those cities (and possibly found the Second City). As far as being in the Umbra, though? I don't think that would be possible.

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    • #3
      Is it possible that Carthage (the original Carthage as the Romans did build a new Carthage later on in the area) exists in some capacity in the Underworld? Yes, it is. Necropoli, the wraith term for cities and towns in the Underworld, are made up of the reflections in the Underworld of buildings that exist and existed in the Skinlands. And it wouldn't be home to Dark Ages wraiths, it would be home to wraiths throughout history as it's now part of the city of Tunis.

      Salting the earth alone wouldn't have any affect on the Necropolis itself as that's something that happened in the Skinlands. If there was more to it than just salting the earth than there is a possibility that there could be some kind of affect in the Shadowlands.

      As for the True Brujah, why would they care about ghostly Carthage? It's not like the true [Brujah] is there. That's were Troile lays buried and they'd see her fate as a just punishment. Plus as I said, it's now Tunis which means it is home to a sizable wraith presence as one of the many Necropoli of Stygia, the Empire of the Western Lands of the Dead. The Tal'Mahe'Ra's lair of Enoch is their only Underworld holding for a number of reason, chief among them being that it is in middle of the Atlantic Ocean, where Stygia has no presence and is unaware of them. And in the metaplot when they were told about Enoch by the Ferrymen, they invaded it. After several weeks of fighting, the Smiling Lord, the asshole of Stygia's Deathlords, had a relic-nuke dropped on the city, obliterating it and helping to spark the Sixth Great Maelstrom in the Underworld and triggering the end of Wraith: the Oblivion.

      That's the thing with wraiths, they are probably the most numerous of all the splats. The thing is that most of them are stuck in the Underworld. Tal'Mahe'Ra cannot openly confront Stygia like that and be able to weather their response in the home turf of Stygia.


      Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
        The Tal'Mahe'Ra's lair of Enoch is their only Underworld holding for a number of reason, chief among them being that it is in middle of the Atlantic Ocean
        Soooo... did someone move Enoch there in the Underworld, or were they trying to imply some weird Atlantis thing about its original location?

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        • #5

          Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
          The Tal'Mahe'Ra's lair of Enoch is their only Underworld holding for a number of reason, chief among them being that it is in middle of the Atlantic Ocean, where Stygia has no presence and is unaware of them.
          Well, at least in V20, there are a lot of good reasons why it is their only holding. The first being that Enoch was largely desired because of all the texts they had. As well as the Gahenna codex's that the sect wants to enact. A second big reason being that colonizing the Underworld is extreme dangerous and diffcult, Wraiths aside. Because you have to deal with navagating the Tempest and keeping a supply of blood, which requires a somewhat steady supply of humans brought in. I only mention this because I recall they do want to find the other cities (Second City, Lilith's Garden, etc). But there are a lot of other technical details getting in the way outside of Wraiths.


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          • #6
            Funny enough, actual history is actually friendlier to this than fictionalized or sensationalized accounts which have popped up over the years. For example, the story of Carthage being salted by Scipio Africanus only popped up in the 19th Century or so; there are no period accounts of this being done.

            What was done in antiquity, however, and I shit you not this has a vastly stronger historicity than accounts of simply salting the earth, is plowing it. Accounts of Scipio Africanus having plowed the earth of Carthage date back to the 13th Century, if I remember right. So, there's the answer to your "earth meld" question.

            Hebrew accounts of salting the earth are believed to have had more ritual or ceremonial purpose than practical (which in cWoD terms, would indicate some form of numina, True Magick, or thaumaturgy at work).

            Beyond that, there are multiple...Assyrian? accounts of plowing the earth and planting invasive, resilient, plant species, not salting it. Pragmatically, if you wanted to fuck up a rival civilization, plowing the earth to destroy topsoil and root networks (and adding sand as you plow it), and planting aggressive weeds in the wake of plowing, would be what you'd do. Salting the earth has fuck-all impact on arability; either soil salinity was already high enough due to environmental factors to impact arability, or it'd leach right out with the first good rain or irrigation, there's not really a whole lot of middle ground on that one.

            What I think is going on here, is in antiquity clear through the Middle Ages, salt was goddamn expensive. The expression "worth one's salt" is actually Medieval European in origin. Our word "salary" is derived from the latin salarium, which even though there are no historical links or primary sources indicating the precise use of it (Pliny and Livy best being taken with a grain of salt, pun absolutely intended), indicates salt's use as some form of payment or income supplement dating back to the Roman Republic.

            In my opinion, it's metaphor for wealth, power, and success. To say a conqueror salted the conquered's earth is to say the conqueror chose to utterly humiliate an opponent through a demonstration of raw wealth. The modern day equivalent would be, for instance, the USA having built a fifty-foot solid gold statue of George W. Bush buggering Mohammad right in the middle of downtown Baghdad. Which, bringing this back to cWoD antiquity, is totally a Ventrue thing to do.

            In WoD, what probably happened was the Ventrue had the earth plowed in daytime to root out pesky earth melders, brought out the blood sorcerers to cleanse the ground of any remaining infernalist taint (which may or may not have involved salt, given salt's ritual use repelling, controlling, or destroying demons), then invented this whole story about salting the earth to maintain the Silence of the Blood while saying "our dick is this much bigger than Carthage's".
            Last edited by Theodrim; 02-22-2017, 05:05 PM.

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            • #7
              I think it could be reflected in the atrocity or battleground realms.


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              • #8
                I think it's likely that a version of Carthage has ended up in the Dark Umbra (whether or not it's still there would be debatable). It is pretty unlikely that it has cast any recognizable reflections into the middle Umbra.

                I don't think the salting the earth thing would have any effect in either case. If you decided that that was part of a greater Ritual, then perhaps. But at that point it is entirely on you to decide the intent of said Ritual as well as any effects of it (intended or otherwise).


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ideon View Post
                  Soooo... did someone move Enoch there in the Underworld, or were they trying to imply some weird Atlantis thing about its original location?
                  V20 Black Hand locates Enoch in the Tempest, with a direct connection to the Labyrinth. No-one knows how it ended up that deep in the Underworld.


                  Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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                  • #10
                    In Wraith, the great city of Stygia was made with ghostly parts of the older cities. It's possible than some buildings of the ancient Carthage are now in Stygia.

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                    • #11
                      Which would fit with the entire Rome = Stygia theme. When Rome conquered Carthage, Stygia would have soul forged the Wraith population and looted everything that they could.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by marin View Post
                        V20 Black Hand locates Enoch in the Tempest, with a direct connection to the Labyrinth. No-one knows how it ended up that deep in the Underworld.
                        If I recall correctly, it was located in the Tempest in the original DSotBH in 2nd Edition as well, though the Labyrinth connection is new.

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                        • #13
                          Underworld geography is... weird. Enoch probably exists as a Far Shore and hidden city in the Tempest, much like the Ferrymen city of Dis, or the Dark Kingdoms of Sand and Flint.

                          Cheers!


                          If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
                          'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

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                          • #14
                            Isn't it spelled out that Enoch is in the Tempest, rather than the Shadowlands conterminous with a physical earthly location?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                              Which would fit with the entire Rome = Stygia theme. When Rome conquered Carthage, Stygia would have soul forged the Wraith population and looted everything that they could.
                              This.

                              There is no way that Stygia would let the Underworld Carthage standing. Specially since the city would be receiving a huge legion of dead all at once. Stygia would wait a generation or two (since Carthage wouldn't have new "recruits" comming) and would raise it to the ground.

                              About other Umbral reflections, you probably won't find any on the mid Umbra, but you can be damn sure that you can find it on the High Umbra (plus, a very weird and unreliable version of it on the Dreaming)

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