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Carthage in the underworld/umbra, Possible?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
    Isn't it spelled out that Enoch is in the Tempest, rather than the Shadowlands conterminous with a physical earthly location?
    As it is in the books, yeah, I think so, thought that doesn't make much sense, it would be far better if it were a Far Shore bellow the Tempest.

    And the relic nuke... I mean, common, isn't an amount of some MILLIONS of legionaires wraiths, plus the lords of Stygia with the powers of antidiluvians, aint that enough to destroy a city with a few hundreds of vampires?

    That's just silly.

    The only reason wraiths aren't the most powerful splat of all, is because they are stuck in another dimension lol

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
      Isn't it spelled out that Enoch is in the Tempest, rather than the Shadowlands conterminous with a physical earthly location?
      Yeah, it is explicitly in the Tempest now, sitting on top of the Labyrinth. And V20 has it still existing with backing off meta-plot from prior editions.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

        As it is in the books, yeah, I think so, thought that doesn't make much sense, it would be far better if it were a Far Shore bellow the Tempest.
        I think the Far Shores are supposed to be on the same "level" of the underworld as the Tempest, they're essentially islands (or continents) floating in it the same way Stygia is. It's the Labyrinth that's another level down/removed from the physical world.

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        • #19
          So, is Stygia a "Atlantis-like" insular city? Where, in the Middle of the mediterranean or in the middle of the Atlantic?

          That doesn't seem right to me

          I always saw the Far Shores as places INSIDE the "Waters" of the Tempest... But I don't know for sure. It would be strange for them to be just "unexplored land" with a correspondence in our globe

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Karlgust View Post
            So, is Stygia a "Atlantis-like" insular city? Where, in the Middle of the mediterranean or in the middle of the Atlantic?

            That doesn't seem right to me

            I always saw the Far Shores as places INSIDE the "Waters" of the Tempest... But I don't know for sure. It would be strange for them to be just "unexplored land" with a correspondence in our globe
            Well, only the Shadowlands are a reflection of the living world, per my understanding. Pretty sure it works that such people, places, etc slip from the Shadowlands into the Tempest. And rest on/as islands above the water of what was the Sea of Shadows, with the storm of the Tempest going about them.

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            • #21
              Alright. So. Let's talk about the Underworld, but I'm going to keep it pretty basic, since some of it isn't really relevant to Vampire. The Shadowlands are contiguous with the real world, and the Shroud is the metaphysical barrier separating the two. The Tempest exists as a layer "under" the Shadowlands, a often referred to in nautical terms - but it is the sky, the sea, and everything in-between - it is also an area that changes chaotically, and takes many different forms. Sometimes, it's a calm, placid sea, like being on the ocean, and other times it's like a dense fog, but the fog is made from the tears of every child that has lost a puppy and broken glass, where shapes move and twist out of sight and strange noises echo. And sometimes, there's a storm, where things like raindrops made of molten mercury scream racist epitaphs as they hit the ground. Then there are Nihils, literal tears in the membrane between the Shadowlands and the Tempest, which allow easy access to travel in the Tempest, but also allows things to come up from it. The Dark Kingdoms, like Stygia, and the Far Shores are "islands" of stability that sit in the Tempest, not analogous to any real place. Travel from the Shadowlands to these islands are usually done via Byways - paths of stability and relative safety carved out over eons. Byways can look like anything, and even change appearance over the course of their route. A highway exit in Cleveland can become a cobblestone street, and then a linoleum floor. The largest and safest Byway is the River of Death, the Stryx. Other byways feed into it, and it leads to Stygia. "Below" the Tempest is the Labyrinth, and in the center of that is Oblivion, but they're not really important to our conversation.

              Now, Enoch is in the Tempest, which is odd in itself (and one book touched on how it couldn't be the real Enoch due to this), basically a fortress sitting on a rock. It has no real-world counterpart, is hidden and obscured by the Tempest, has only one or two poorly-maintained (but guarded) Byways, and links directly to the Labyrinth. It should have been (and in V20 is) the perfect hideout for the Black Hand.

              And that's the short version.

              Cheers!


              If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
              'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

                As it is in the books, yeah, I think so, thought that doesn't make much sense, it would be far better if it were a Far Shore bellow the Tempest.

                And the relic nuke... I mean, common, isn't an amount of some MILLIONS of legionaires wraiths, plus the lords of Stygia with the powers of antidiluvians, aint that enough to destroy a city with a few hundreds of vampires?

                That's just silly.

                The only reason wraiths aren't the most powerful splat of all, is because they are stuck in another dimension lol
                The Smiling Lord dropped the nuke on Enoch as a message to Yu Haung, as he kept a second nuke in reserve, should the Emperor of the Yellow Springs betray him in the bid for ruling Stygia.

                Cheers!


                If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
                'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

                Comment


                • #23
                  A little teaser.

                  Carthage, past and present, appears in Beckett's Jyhad Diary. I believe it's the first time a character visits the domain in any Vampire book. There's definitely something timey-wimey going on there.


                  Matthew Dawkins
                  Freelance Writer and Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nothing View Post
                    Alright. So. Let's talk about the Underworld, but I'm going to keep it pretty basic, since some of it isn't really relevant to Vampire. The Shadowlands are contiguous with the real world, and the Shroud is the metaphysical barrier separating the two. The Tempest exists as a layer "under" the Shadowlands, a often referred to in nautical terms - but it is the sky, the sea, and everything in-between - it is also an area that changes chaotically, and takes many different forms. Sometimes, it's a calm, placid sea, like being on the ocean, and other times it's like a dense fog, but the fog is made from the tears of every child that has lost a puppy and broken glass, where shapes move and twist out of sight and strange noises echo. And sometimes, there's a storm, where things like raindrops made of molten mercury scream racist epitaphs as they hit the ground. Then there are Nihils, literal tears in the membrane between the Shadowlands and the Tempest, which allow easy access to travel in the Tempest, but also allows things to come up from it. The Dark Kingdoms, like Stygia, and the Far Shores are "islands" of stability that sit in the Tempest, not analogous to any real place. Travel from the Shadowlands to these islands are usually done via Byways - paths of stability and relative safety carved out over eons. Byways can look like anything, and even change appearance over the course of their route. A highway exit in Cleveland can become a cobblestone street, and then a linoleum floor. The largest and safest Byway is the River of Death, the Stryx. Other byways feed into it, and it leads to Stygia. "Below" the Tempest is the Labyrinth, and in the center of that is Oblivion, but they're not really important to our conversation.

                    Now, Enoch is in the Tempest, which is odd in itself (and one book touched on how it couldn't be the real Enoch due to this), basically a fortress sitting on a rock. It has no real-world counterpart, is hidden and obscured by the Tempest, has only one or two poorly-maintained (but guarded) Byways, and links directly to the Labyrinth. It should have been (and in V20 is) the perfect hideout for the Black Hand.

                    And that's the short version.

                    Cheers!
                    Thanks for that. I've always been a bit confused on the cosmological setup of Wraith (which generally hasn't matter enough to games I've ran for me to read through and hash it out myself), and this goes a long way to mapping it out.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nothing View Post
                      Now, Enoch is in the Tempest, which is odd in itself (and one book touched on how it couldn't be the real Enoch due to this)
                      Interesting; did said book say why? Is it impossible for locations (obliterated or otherwise) to 'break off' from the Shadowlands and fall further towards Oblivion?

                      Admittedly I know more about Exalted's Underworld than oWoD's despite playing in the latter far more; I could have easily seen the Aralu in a situation like the former's Neverborn, with the memory of Enoch (if they actually are dead Antes) acting as a palace-tomb chaining them from falling into the abyss, yanking the whole city out of the Shadowlands on their way down.

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                      • #26
                        The V20 Black Hand book talks about necromancers drawing relics of destroyed buildings and war-torn cities to Enoch as construction materials/resources. It's possible they aren't the first supernatural creatures to have done so.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                          The V20 Black Hand book talks about necromancers drawing relics of destroyed buildings and war-torn cities to Enoch as construction materials/resources. It's possible they aren't the first supernatural creatures to have done so.
                          It's also noted that certain parts of Ubar, the core of Enoch, are anachronistic when compared with modern scholarship, implying that they'd been built after the city entered the Underworld.


                          Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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