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Do Potence successes do lethal damage in hand to hand?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
    Whatever works, but I generally require a weapon like a knife to deal lethal damage.
    I'd say shattered bones should be in the same league as a gap in that bit of flesh you don't really need all that much. Having a STR rating where bashing becomes lethal makes sense, so Trains do Lethal since they have a "Strength" of 20 or whatever you would call it, a cop's baton does Bashing (Strength 3), the Brujah's Baseball Bat (Strength 10) does lethal.
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 02-26-2017, 07:12 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
      Whatever works, but I generally require a weapon like a knife to deal lethal damage.
      Do you still make two-handed warhammers do bashing?

      OT: The dot in potence letting your attacks do lethal is always generally a good house rule that I thoroughly encourage, especially when the players use their full strength against a mortal and accidentally put their fist through their chest.

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      • #18
        Well, I play modern, so it does not come up, but I generally have weapons dealing lethal damage unless they are designed to be less than lethal (beanbag rounds, saps, tasers, whips, etc). Now, if people want to dealing lethal damage with their unarmed strikes in my games, they just have to accept dice of bashing damage equal to the amount of dice of lethal damage that they roll, as they are exceeding the limits of their body (Martial Arts Techniques can train someone to deal lethal damage safely with their barehands). With Potence, it is a matter of theme, but I do not think that Kindred should suffer a penalty for purchasing a Discipline (automatically dealing lethal damage is a penalty when killing people potentially costs Mortality).

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cantankerous Bees View Post

          Do you still make two-handed warhammers do bashing?
          In what way is a sharp-beaked military weapon a bashing one? It's lethal/impaling. Perhaps you're thinking of something other than a warhammer?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by vicky_molokh View Post
            In what way is a sharp-beaked military weapon a bashing one? It's lethal/impaling. Perhaps you're thinking of something other than a warhammer?
            More than one book listed warhammers (DA) and sledge hammers (modern nights) as bashing damage. It always struck me as silly.


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            • #21
              It's one of those grey areas where the mechanics can't quite match up to reality. It's a fact that the human body is much more resilient against blunt trauma than against penetrating trauma. The World of Darkness' distinction between bashing and lethal damage does a good job of representing this, but it has its limitations. Real life is complicated and doesn't always have a clear distinction between blunt and penetrating trauma, so it's possible for both to happen simultaneously. The question is where exactly you draw the line.

              In the case of warhammers, my inclination is that the hammer side does bashing and the pick side does lethal, but it's not wrong for both sides to do lethal. Same deal with sledgehammers, to me they fit bashing better than they do lethal, but it's not wrong to think that lethal fits better than bashing. You also see similar arguments come up with respect to firearms, in that in some ways it makes sense for them to do bashing to vampires, and in other ways it makes more sense for them to do lethal.

              The way prefer to approach it is to focus on simulating vampires, such that the question of how a given weapon affects the vampiric body is key. Since my understanding is that a vampire dies when their body transitions from "corpse" to "mangled body parts", weapons which cut and sever are lethal, while those that pound and crush are bashing. Impaling tends to be lethal for big holes (spears, swords), and bashing for small ones (bullets, arrows). There's still grey areas and room for interpretation, but i don't think there's any way for there not to be in the current system.
              Last edited by Lys; 02-26-2017, 10:10 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by idpersona View Post

                More than one book listed warhammers (DA) and sledge hammers (modern nights) as bashing damage. It always struck me as silly.
                I'm pretty sure this was a big debate when one of the more recent DA books came out. To where the writers established 'blunt use is still bashing, despite degree, to a certain extent.' Which seems a silly premise, but it can be hard to draw a line between certain weapon uses like that.

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                • #23
                  I agree that it is a silly distinction, especially since mortals can learn to do lethal damage with their bare hands with Martial Arts Techniques. I think that a better treatment with blunt weapons would be to have them deal lethal damage normally (unless they were designed to be less than lethal), but it allow them to be used to do bashing damage at the discretion of the wielder with no penalty (I would have blunt weapons deal bashing damage to Undead though). Of course, it would be useful to have easy descriptive traits with each type of damage, but that is neither here nor there.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post

                    I'm pretty sure this was a big debate when one of the more recent DA books came out. To where the writers established 'blunt use is still bashing, despite degree, to a certain extent.' Which seems a silly premise, but it can be hard to draw a line between certain weapon uses like that.
                    Honestly, I think it's just an artifact of the mid-'90s game design. I don't think WW looked up half the historical weapons involved in the DA line, and just went with what D&D had to say about 'em, assuming it was at least somewhat historically accurate (spoiler, it wasn't). Especially being how what the DA books describe as a warhammer, is actually a maul. See also, the conflation of flails and morning stars, and the default inclusion of the more-likely-than-not ahistorical ball-and-chain flail. Not to mention, the exclusion of weapons such as flanged maces.

                    Which, to be honest, is straight-out odd considering the lengths to which WW went in their books to explain the difference in armors and their historicity.

                    I'm not sure what OPP's position is, but were I to hazard a guess it's probably due to the desire to hold the line against admitting WW straight-up fucked it depicting of medieval weapons, to avoid complicating weapons or empowering munchkins by adding weapons capable of dealing bashing or lethal on-demand, and/or to avoid devaluing the "non-lethal blow" combat actions (like striking with a pommel or flat of a sword).

                    Not that it's a big deal, anyhow. War hammers didn't make their way to the battlefield until the 14th Century, after the reintroduction of plate armors. Neither did mauls, for that matter, but I'll grant mauls are at least more plausible than war hammers, and any ST would be remiss to simply explain the difference and that WW/OPP just screwed up.

                    Impaling tends to be lethal for big holes (spears, swords), and bashing for small ones (bullets, arrows). There's still grey areas and room for interpretation, but i don't think there's any way for there not to be in the current system.
                    Arrows are a stickier wicket, since their damage should be determinant on the type of head used, and I'd avoid them for now. But, that said, indeed the fact vampires lack a metabolism complicates matters.
                    Last edited by Theodrim; 02-27-2017, 06:23 PM.

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