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  • #16
    My main issue with them is that their discipline is broken on an amazing scale.

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    • #17
      I think any character/story can be fun and interesting if you get creative with it, even Humanity 10's. It might be harder, but nothing is impossible.

      As for the "good" vs. "right" thing...I do love the new CoD Integrity system for that, with its breaking points and such. Specifically in that example, though, there are plenty of options you could take besides killing a monstrous mortal! When I think of my Gangrel in that situation, I imagine her forcibly blood bonding the guy until she can hand him over to the people he's wronged or otherwise figure out something productive to do with him (that doesn't involve keeping him as a ghoul for herself). Unless killing him is in self defense or defense of another's life. In those cases, it shouldn't affect Humanity at all.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
        Fascinating, I didn't know Golconda was about balance I thought it was like an vampiric nirvana. A higher state of being
        There have been different interpretations of Golconda in various books. Some imply it's about reconciling the Beast with one's human nature, others paint Golconda as utterly rejecting and conquering one's bestial half.

        I prefer the latter take. The Path of the Beast exists for the former.


        Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chesh View Post
          I think any character/story can be fun and interesting if you get creative with it, even Humanity 10's. It might be harder, but nothing is impossible.
          This, precisely. Playing a high Humanity vampire is not impossible. It's just Hard Mode.

          Any old asshole can "win" the Jyhad by plunging down the depths of depravity, until they're balanced precariously over the drop into Wassal. It's another thing entirely to persist in this world as a vampire - and even accomplish one's goals - while remaining moral. Difficulties abound with such an approach, obviously. But these are not barriers to play, but Challenges.

          If you can't figure out a way to play a character that avoids any sort of wrong-doing, and have it be interesting, then you're not trying (or else the Storyteller isn't challenging you). Like I said above, characters have goals they work towards. Goals that might be just as grand or seemingly unattainable as those of a less scrupulous leech. The fact that the vampire is also trying to avoid compromising their integrity is a constraint that is to be worked around.

          And, really, trying to accomplish a goal through social and mental means, without recourse to violence or murder, can be amazingly interesting. Especially if your rivals have no such compunction. Politics can be cutthroat enough as it is, without your enemies seeking to literally cut your throat.


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          • #20
            All of that.

            I'd also add that characters who aren't standard, like high Humanity Kindred, tend to develop unusual circumstances you wouldn't expect for their setting (when played creatively and with care, with a cooperative ST). They can end up adding a lot of flavor to their story and taking it in unexpected directions.

            For example, my biggest surprise with my Gangrel was how many powerful allies and friends she's attracted to herself simply by being genuinely considerate. All of them are Kindred who are overlooked by the higher ups and popular kids in the Tower. All of them low-key have a great deal of influence because no one's looking over their shoulders. It turns out being someone people can trust is a very powerful thing indeed, because without meaning to, my character stumbled her way into a network of protectors who watch out for her when she starts being particularly stupid.

            And because my character is the way she is, it's let my ST explore all her underestimated underdog NPCs and bring them more to center stage, to showcase their own quieter forms of power.


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            • #21
              Humanity 10 is boring because the Sin is Selfish Thoughts. Playing someone who has no internal conflict about doing Good is boring. Doing Good should be something people choose to do on a case-by-case basis, and if you're Humanity 10 you're either going to lose it immediately or you're going to not actually RP well since you don't even get to consider non-good options.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by rat_bastard View Post
                My main issue with them is that their discipline is broken on an amazing scale.
                Their discipline being broken is why I present them as moral failures. They keep up their Humanity artificially. That's their greatest failing. And they learn to isolate themselves since their Pillars make them prone to Frenzy beyond their Temples.

                But it isn't a Discipline which works for PCs really. Level 1 is horrifically broken, yes, and the Animal Blood thing is great, and level 2 gives better counter-magic than Counter-magic 5 and also applies to every Discipline... but the Pillar thing is shooting yourself in the foot.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                  Their discipline being broken is why I present them as moral failures. They keep up their Humanity artificially. That's their greatest failing. And they learn to isolate themselves since their Pillars make them prone to Frenzy beyond their Temples.

                  But it isn't a Discipline which works for PCs really. Level 1 is horrifically broken, yes, and the Animal Blood thing is great, and level 2 gives better counter-magic than Counter-magic 5 and also applies to every Discipline... but the Pillar thing is shooting yourself in the foot.
                  Eh, I think you are getting into a lot of metaphysics of 'what is humanity' if Bardo is to be viewed as inherently artificial. Meditation and Conscience are part of regaining the lost point. I always considered the true failing being the rejection of what they are. "This Discipline is not the same state as Golconda. Golconda is a realization and acceptance of the way things are, while the Children’s Disciplines are based on denial." Having high Humanity can be as much of a failing if done wrong.

                  I agree Bardo is handled poorly regardless.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post

                    Eh, I think you are getting into a lot of metaphysics of 'what is humanity' if Bardo is to be viewed as inherently artificial. Meditation and Conscience are part of regaining the lost point. I always considered the true failing being the rejection of what they are. "This Discipline is not the same state as Golconda. Golconda is a realization and acceptance of the way things are, while the Children’s Disciplines are based on denial." Having high Humanity can be as much of a failing if done wrong.

                    I agree Bardo is handled poorly regardless.
                    I'd argue that since RAW you can go from Humanity 1 to Humanity 2 on a regular basis with the power, it's artificial. Now a good ST would say "how can you repent for burning down that orphanage if this is the 3rd time you've done it", but just looking at the mechanics and taking the fluff at face value (apologize internally, meditate, spend your full blood pool) it feels pretty artificial. If it's 100% genuine, then why isn't it just a game mechanic? Why is it a special power? What is the blood doing? It's a mystical power, and that much we can tell from how it's done.

                    I mean it's followed by a set of powers which are clearly mystical and have little to do with morality. I'd argue that it isn't "real" humanity, apologizing internally fixes nothing. In my game I replaced it with a plot device power for making up for Humanity failings of the past, so if you need to talk to a ghost to make up for killing them, Bardo 1 lets you do that in that specific scenario, that sort of thing.
                    Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-01-2017, 08:53 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Well, the first level power is painful for Kindred. If you fail, you have 0 blood pool for nothing. Even if you succeed, you have 0 dice pool for your Self-Control until you next feed. If you are not prepared, you will go into a hunger frenzy and kill someone. Kindred in a hunger frenzy go after the most satisfying meal avaliable, Kindred is better than Human and Human is better than Animal.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        Well, the first level power is painful for Kindred. If you fail, you have 0 blood pool for nothing. Even if you succeed, you have 0 dice pool for your Self-Control until you next feed. If you are not prepared, you will go into a hunger frenzy and kill someone. Kindred in a hunger frenzy go after the most satisfying meal avaliable, Kindred is better than Human and Human is better than Animal.
                        Spend 1 Willpower for an automatic turn of resisting Frenzy, and use that turn to grab your prepared animal meal. With Bardo 3 and Animalism 2 you're basically just a Humanity-recovering machine with zero blood worries.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                          I'd argue that since RAW you can go from Humanity 1 to Humanity 2 on a regular basis with the power, it's artificial. Now a good ST would say "how can you repent for burning down that orphanage if this is the 3rd time you've done it", but just looking at the mechanics and taking the fluff at face value (apologize internally, meditate, spend your full blood pool) it feels pretty artificial. If it's 100% genuine, then why isn't it just a game mechanic? Why is it a special power? What is the blood doing? It's a mystical power, and that much we can tell from how it's done.
                          I'd assume the blood is being used as a stand-in for experience and time. Which kind of gets into what is required mentally to restore humanity, something that would logically require time and action to reflect spending XP to go back up. I think 'apologize internally' is a mistatement (I'm just going over V20, but maybe it goes over it more in some other book) since you have to roll Conscience. You have to actually feel bad or justify it. I'm not saying the system can't be abused either, just that I think the concept that they are cheating metaphysics of morality isn't how I see it. Just developing their power to focus on improving.

                          I mean it's followed by a set of powers which are clearly mystical and have little to do with morality. I'd argue that it isn't "real" humanity, apologizing internally fixes nothing. In my game I replaced it with a plot device power for making up for Humanity failings of the past, so if you need to talk to a ghost to make up for killing them, Bardo 1 lets you do that in that specific scenario, that sort of thing.
                          Well, it is more a discipline of mystical consciousness and Egyptian themes than just discipline of morality. Arguably 2-4, 6, and 7 are pretty geared towards dealing with morality, though. Regardless, they rarely come up in my games and I think using something like just high Humanity vampires or an idea of Inconnu works just as well.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post

                            What did they do as npcs?
                            ​They would help PC's achieve Golconda or otherwise regain their Humanity. They've also allied with a coterie of Camarilla PC's to help fend off the Sabbat and Followers of Set at one point.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rat_bastard View Post
                              My main issue with them is that their discipline is broken on an amazing scale.

                              I think the problem was, they were written as NPCs so there wasn't any real attempt to make their Discipline "balanced." The thought was probably nothing more complex than, "Players will never use these guys so who gives a fuck."

                              You would occasionally run into this problem with other Vampire clans or bloodlines who had their really special, really powerful Disciplines that had basically been designed for NPCs and could cause problems when PC's ended up getting their hands on them.

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