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How many souls do you reckon the Giovanni have?

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  • How many souls do you reckon the Giovanni have?

    I was just reading Rites of the Blood and was reminded that the Giovanni need 100 million souls to destroy the Sudario. Other books I've read have said that they are pretty close. But how close is pretty close..

    I'd say that in all their time in existence they've collected about 10-15 million souls. This is of course not taking into account Maelstroms and souls that otherwise get destroyed or whatever. What do you think?


    Light inspires illusion and interpretation. Truth can only be found in darkness.

  • #2
    I think it is a bit high, considering that the Spirit Slaves Background is only one Wraith per level. If the Giovanni have a global population of 2,500, they might have 250,000 enslaved Wraiths. They justly do not have the numbers to effectively enslave tens of millions of Wraiths (especially since legions of Wraith would come stomp them flat if they started stealing that many souls).

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    • #3
      The latest i read was from CB Giovanni Revised where they said that before the 6th Great Maelstrom, Clan Giovanni had close to half the required number. I also read that when they did reach half the required number they would crash the stock markets of the world and gather the rest in one fell swoop from all the chaos and suicides that a total economic crash would cause.

      Unfortunately for the clan, when the 6th Great Maelstrom hit they lost a lot of their collected souls and had to basically start again from scratch.





      English is not my native language, so i apologize for errors in grammar or spelling.

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      • #4
        3.
        they had four but it got lost in the couch cushions.

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        • #5
          The Giovanni canonically have methods of storing large volumes of Ghosts. There are rituals for putting every ghost in your line of sight into a jar, and you can just store them like that if you want. Ship them back to Venice. They got half way, and since the population is booming and thus total deaths per year is increasing, more Wraiths are coming their way as you head towards Gehenna. Then The 6th Maelstrom happens.

          Remember that the Giovanni are being controlled by the Archmage Voormas, who used a Mind + Entropy effect to memetically poison the very CONCEPT of Necromancy. Now anyone who practises Necromantic arts will slowly be driven towards destroying the Shroud (this might also apply to those who harness the power of the Abyss, but that hasn't been confirmed). Even if the Giovanni had gotten the souls and done it perfectly, it wouldn't have been the Long Night they hope for, it would have been a victory for Oblivion.

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          • #6
            Where is that canonically in V20th?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
              Where is that canonically in V20th?
              Tempest Prison, lvl 3ritual in Rites of Blood is the one used to send lots of ghost to Venice, & I think they also mention there about the way to store the ghost there.

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              • #8
                IIRC, that bit in Clanbook Giovanni Revised stated that they lost about half their stores of imprisoned souls in 1999. So they'd be at maybe 25 million or so afterwards, IF the Sixth Great Maelstrom happened in a given campaign.

                What I don't get is how just killing scads of people via economic collapse gets them the 50 Million+ remaining souls they need for the big ritual. It's not as if the Giovanni would have actual possession or control of any of those souls. As we saw, their organization gets plunged into chaos when a Great Maelstrom occurs. And those deaths wouldn't be happening all at one time/in one location in a way that might serve as a sacrificial act during the ritual.

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                • #9
                  I find it hard to believe that they are anywhere close to having 100 million souls even though that is the canonical answer. First, I've never thought it believable that the Giovanni have any significant members compared to the other clans - they have a more limited recruiting pool, aren't present in most domains, and only a small number of the clan would possess the requisite skill in Necromancy to do such a thing. Second, most people don't become wraiths when they die, and the Giovanni only have the opportunity to enslave very few of them. Third, I don't think the Giovanni can enslave souls willy nilly - they get to enslave the souls of their own mortal family and perhaps some others opportunistically (the Hierarchy has its own means to defend the dead from people who wish to torment them).

                  The Giovanni have only been around for 500 years or so (counting when they became a clan, not when Augustus first got embraced). To get 100 million souls, they'd need to capture on average 200,000 souls a year. That is a ridiculous amount. Even a ten million figure means the clan enslaves about 20,000 souls a year on average. That still seems way too high for me.

                  Depending on how big you think the Giovanni are (numbers plus presence around the world), how many people become wraiths when they die, and how successful they are in defying the Hierarchy, you can get lots of different numbers. For me, it's quite low - perhaps a few thousand a year at most, usually under a thousand. They will need to be doing this for quite a while longer. Of course, as a background threat, this still seems quite ominous - vampires can be around for a very long time. Of course, if I was ever interested in a chronicle plot that would be fun for PCs to thwart, then they'd almost be there... But I'm not interested in that plot.

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                  • #10
                    Giovanni are global and have embraced multiple families. And every Giovanni pays a Ghost Tax to Venice in exchange for pocket money and various goodies. If you have 1000 Giovanni globally, and each captures 1 ghost a week (not unrealistic at all) then you're golden.

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                    • #11
                      I think that on paper the idea was that once the Giovanni reached half the number of souls necessary, tanking the global economy would drag the world into another great war. A lot of the souls the Giovanni had captured was as a result of the great wars of the 20th century. The scale of death and the brutality with which people passed away made several come back as drones - easy pickings for the clan.

                      I would imagine enslaving drones is way easier than enslaving a wraith proper, or, heaven forbid, a spectre.


                      Malkavian Madness Forum - Your pbp fix. Be it nWoD, cWoD, CoC, D&D or something else entirely, come over here and get your game on

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                        Giovanni are global and have embraced multiple families. And every Giovanni pays a Ghost Tax to Venice in exchange for pocket money and various goodies. If you have 1000 Giovanni globally, and each captures 1 ghost a week (not unrealistic at all) then you're golden.

                        This is what I was thinking. Between the Milliners, Pisanob, Della Passaglia, Ghiberti, Putanesca, Beryn, Hidalgo, Li Weng, Rosselini, Koenig, St.John, Rothstein and Dunsirn, they should be harvesting a pretty respectable amount of souls from a myriad of geographical locations. Not to mention their being "affluent beyond imagination" and able to (directly or indirectly) cause a decent amount of ghost-making deaths.

                        If they need 100 million and they had "close to half" before the Maelstrom, depending on exactly how much damage the Maelstrom did, I don't think 10 million too far afield. That's like the population of Chicago, give or take.


                        Light inspires illusion and interpretation. Truth can only be found in darkness.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                          Giovanni are global and have embraced multiple families. And every Giovanni pays a Ghost Tax to Venice in exchange for pocket money and various goodies. If you have 1000 Giovanni globally, and each captures 1 ghost a week (not unrealistic at all) then you're golden.
                          -

                          One a week is enough to hit "Existential problem for a necopolis" and it doesn't matter how scary a necromancer you are they have to take you out or die. Or you don't have any ghosts in the area. Either way its unsustainable in the West. In the East there are numbers but souls are still valuable there plus Giovanni there are generally on their best behavior

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lian View Post
                            -

                            One a week is enough to hit "Existential problem for a necopolis" and it doesn't matter how scary a necromancer you are they have to take you out or die. Or you don't have any ghosts in the area. Either way its unsustainable in the West. In the East there are numbers but souls are still valuable there plus Giovanni there are generally on their best behavior
                            Ghosts are created on the regular in big cities, and with Cenotaph 3 (I think) you can literally sense when new Ghosts are "born" within your area. Furthermore, summoning Specters is simple (really simple, just use the Drums ritual and a tonne turn up and will serve you if you stop banging the drum) and you can then just capture them in a bottle. Ghosts aren't limited to location, and Specters are so easily summoned that they appear when you Botch, they're almost the default. And controlling specters isn't easy, but again you have that bottle which sucks them up Ghost-busters style.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                              Ghosts are created on the regular in big cities, and with Cenotaph 3 (I think) you can literally sense when new Ghosts are "born" within your area. Furthermore, summoning Specters is simple (really simple, just use the Drums ritual and a tonne turn up and will serve you if you stop banging the drum) and you can then just capture them in a bottle. Ghosts aren't limited to location, and Specters are so easily summoned that they appear when you Botch, they're almost the default. And controlling specters isn't easy, but again you have that bottle which sucks them up Ghost-busters style.

                              Not really. First Cenotaph is basically only practiced by the Gilberti. Second while Ghosts are alot more common than anything else they are still relatively rare for deaths. First you need a wp of of 5 or more that cuts off 75 percent of deaths. Then you need to have a passion to come back. There might be major cities producing 1 or 2 wraiths a week.. but wraiths will notice that and generally build necropolises around it.


                              Now lets assume Giovanni function like other Kindred and don't wander the earth in a black panneled van sucking up ghosts. So they are going to be in the same area for years. They will probably not be the lone giovanni so we are going to assume each giovanni in the area does so, 3 wraiths a week is probably a minimum you're assuming from Giovanni areas unless they are spread out for maximum ghost catching setup(which they aren't") there's also going to be sizeable areas where they just can't get people no matter their powers.. (China, rural areas etc)

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