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How many souls do you reckon the Giovanni have?

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  • #31
    This is all assuming they only harvest "naturally occurring" wraiths. Couldn't they "manufacture" wraiths?

    Giovanni with Dominate have a handy means to test mortals for high Willpower. (The difficulty for the first few powers equals current WP.) If they find a mortal resistant to Dominate (diff > 5), abduct the mortal, torture them, kill them and see what they get. Sure, many wouldn't become a wraith, but a good number would. If nothing else the Giovanni circumvents their clan curse to get a good meal. The local necropoli wouldn't know about these brand new wraiths, and so wouldn't interfere.

    Main problem: the Giovanni would burn through Humanity pretty fast. This is yet another reason for the clan to follow a Path.

    Possibly the bigger question is why vampires of all clans aren't constantly creating wraiths?

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    • #32
      Who's to say they aren't? My understanding is that there's a considerable interval after death before a wraith really becomes aware of their new state and surroundings. Vampires wouldn't necessarily be encountering wraiths they create through malice or accidental overfeeding, they'd have moved on by the time the new wraith is able to interact with the physical world in any way.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
        Giovanni are global and have embraced multiple families. And every Giovanni pays a Ghost Tax to Venice in exchange for pocket money and various goodies. If you have 1000 Giovanni globally, and each captures 1 ghost a week (not unrealistic at all) then you're golden.

        It is unrealistic, there are more then a 1k giovanni but only some of them are gathering souls, and most don't get a Soul a week.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post


          It is unrealistic, there are more then a 1k giovanni but only some of them are gathering souls, and most don't get a Soul a week.
          The only reason the family exists, the only real goal it has at all, is gathering souls. The Long Night isn't some fun project, it is the entire goal of the family. Now, not every Giovanni is a Necromancer, yes, and my post is overly simplistic, but make no mistake; every Giovanni exists to serve the coming of the Long Night.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

            The only reason the family exists, the only real goal it has at all, is gathering souls. The Long Night isn't some fun project, it is the entire goal of the family. Now, not every Giovanni is a Necromancer, yes, and my post is overly simplistic, but make no mistake; every Giovanni exists to serve the coming of the Long Night.

            Its an over arching goal, but without Carrots at the smaller level most of the family isn't burning themselves out catching souls all night. On a night to night basis the family in general consolidates power, which doesn't always mean catching souls.

            They would have burned themselves out long ago if every giovanni went and captured one soul a week, not to mention their secret getting out.

            Its a good way to earn brownie points in Sicly, but not everyone is spending there resources on something that they won't be getting a return on till the end of the world.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post


              Its an over arching goal, but without Carrots at the smaller level most of the family isn't burning themselves out catching souls all night. On a night to night basis the family in general consolidates power, which doesn't always mean catching souls.

              They would have burned themselves out long ago if every giovanni went and captured one soul a week, not to mention their secret getting out.

              Its a good way to earn brownie points in Sicly, but not everyone is spending there resources on something that they won't be getting a return on till the end of the world.
              Who says they get no return? It's perfectly reasonable to trade Souls for Spirit Slaves (50 useless souls for 1 well-trained soul), Momentos Des Muertes (necromantic relics), money, contacts, equipment... Clan Status, old texts, a powerful retainer... while it's never spelled out in canon, I don't think Giovanni are wandering around capturing souls for the sake of Clan unity, they're definitely getting decent Christmas presents from Uncle Augie in exchange.

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              • #37
                Going into an unsavory but quite pertinent tangent, has anyone considered to what degree might or not the Giovanni have involved themselves with extermination camps in WWII?

                We are speaking of a family of necromancer-enterpreuners with their origin in what would become one of the Axis powers and have stake in involving themselves with systematic mass murder.

                Not the most tasteful of subjects to bring up i know, but it's one that is hard to avoid in account of the matter of the Giovanni's endgame.

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                • #38
                  Well, the ghosts of the Dark Kingdom of Wire are plentiful, powerful, and a strange hybrid of Specter and Wraith, so I doubt that the Giovanni had too much success. In addition, the Nazis of Germany did not trust the Fascists of Italy, so they would have politely but firmly told any Italians to leave when they popped up at the concentration camps. Other Kindred, ones more familiar with the local area, would have probably also considered the concentration camps to be their private larders and would have reacted violently to anyone, Giovanni or not, invading their territory.

                  The concentration camps of the Nazis offer a strange twist to the Kindred. For example, the Romanian concentration camps were so horrific that the Nazi SS was forced to take them over because the methods that the Romanians used to exterminate their victims sickened even the Nazi SS. A monstrous Tzimisce descending on the concentration camp to feed and kill would have found herself in the unusual situation of offering a merciful death to the innocent. She may have even been so disgusted by the cruelty of the guards that she may have started feeding on the guards instead of the prisoners because they would feel the proper fear for the death that she brought them. She would have also ripped the spine out of any Giovanni that she found in her territory without her permission and flayed him into torpor with it before leaving him to burn in the early morning sunlight.

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                  • #39
                    Giovanni don't go around with spaghetti scarves saying "mamma mia, that's a spicy specter!". Plenty of Giovanni grow up in other countries and have different surnames. Some Giovanni embraces marry into the family. Getting control of a Concentration Camp's ghost population wouldn't be impossible, in fact it would be easy. You're effectively stealing a possession 99% of kindred don't even know they have.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      Well, the ghosts of the Dark Kingdom of Wire are plentiful, powerful, and a strange hybrid of Specter and Wraith, so I doubt that the Giovanni had too much success. In addition, the Nazis of Germany did not trust the Fascists of Italy, so they would have politely but firmly told any Italians to leave when they popped up at the concentration camps. Other Kindred, ones more familiar with the local area, would have probably also considered the concentration camps to be their private larders and would have reacted violently to anyone, Giovanni or not, invading their territory.
                      Well, except for the part the Giovanni might have involved themselves in a number of ways directly or indirectly, due to simply being successful businessmen with possibly strong connections to fascist Italy and through it to the Reich. A number of corporations of the period, some with no official or national ties to the Axis profiteered on the concentration camps, so i find it extremely improbable that the Giovanni might be mostly stonewalled out of it. Their connections, interests and agendas actually make it very probable that they might have involved themselves in the planning stages in fact. The Axis itself was the product of several years of political, business, diplomatic and philosophic back-&-forth between the countries involved, a context the Giovanni seem scaringly appropriate to insert into.

                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      The concentration camps of the Nazis offer a strange twist to the Kindred. For example, the Romanian concentration camps were so horrific that the Nazi SS was forced to take them over because the methods that the Romanians used to exterminate their victims sickened even the Nazi SS. A monstrous Tzimisce descending on the concentration camp to feed and kill would have found herself in the unusual situation of offering a merciful death to the innocent. She may have even been so disgusted by the cruelty of the guards that she may have started feeding on the guards instead of the prisoners because they would feel the proper fear for the death that she brought them.
                      The matter of Tzimisce standards or disgust is very deabatable and complicated by the sheer weight of terrible stuff Sascha Vykos and many other sample NPCs have been portrayed as doing, not to mention Doctor Tötentanz in Clanbook: Tzimisce.

                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      She would have also ripped the spine out of any Giovanni that she found in her territory without her permission and flayed him into torpor with it before leaving him to burn in the early morning sunlight.
                      Also, who's to say the Giovanni - who doesn't have to be italian, as they have splinter branches in many countries, as pointed out by others - doesn't come with the camp, along with the troops, long before any kindred of occupied territory ever set foot upon it?

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                      • #41
                        If the camp is created in the territory of a Tzimisce, any Tzimisce Kindred would probably be considered to be trespassers in her territory. Of course, the Tzimisce might kill off all of the guards as well in an orgy of violence because they violated the sanctity of her territory. What she would do to the prisoners would depend on her Path, her whims, and if the prisoners show her proper respect when they encountered her during her rampage (cowing in fear and begging for mercy would probably be adequate).

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          If the camp is created in the territory of a Tzimisce, any Tzimisce Kindred would probably be considered to be trespassers in her territory. Of course, the Tzimisce might kill off all of the guards as well in an orgy of violence because they violated the sanctity of her territory. What she would do to the prisoners would depend on her Path, her whims, and if the prisoners show her proper respect when they encountered her during her rampage (cowing in fear and begging for mercy would probably be adequate).
                          The Tzimisce might try - it all depends on how effective are Schlaztka or Vohzd against flamethrowers, mortars and artillery, i guess.

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                          • #43
                            Who needs such things when you can use Animalism to take out the lights? You walk in during the middle of the night in the body of an animal, take out the power for the lights, and then walk in with your body and use Auspex to allow you to see while the guards stumble around in the night. Or you could do it the slow way and pick off a couple of guards every night on patrol. Anyway, Nazi concentration camps did not normally issue flamethrowers to their guards, regardless of the threat.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                              Giovanni don't go around with spaghetti scarves saying "mamma mia, that's a spicy specter!". Plenty of Giovanni grow up in other countries and have different surnames. Some Giovanni embraces marry into the family. Getting control of a Concentration Camp's ghost population wouldn't be impossible, in fact it would be easy. You're effectively stealing a possession 99% of kindred don't even know they have.
                              Now I have the strongest desire to play a non-Italian Giovanni that says that.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                                Now I have the strongest desire to play a non-Italian Giovanni that says that.
                                Non-spanish Lasombra who wears a Sombrero and carries maracas. A non-french Toreador who wears a beret and black/white striped shirt. A Ravnos who- okay, I won't finish that sentence.

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