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What makes Auspex so great for defense?

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  • #31
    Auspex, for awareness of threats and fortitude, for just raw ability to endure threats are two of the Holy trinity of defense, the third relies entirely on player style.

    Dominate is great for defense because it allows you to create slaves who will do their best to defend you from threats and allows you to talk down many opponents.

    Presence is great for defense because it overwhelms your opponent with emotions before they can properly harm you.

    Protean is great for defense because many of the forms allow you to flee to places your foes cannot reach or render you immune to conventional harm.

    Celerity is great for defense because a passive agility boost adds to your parry, dodge and disarm pools for free.

    Thaumaturgy is great for defense because of too many reasons to count, just remember that those rituals take serious time to enact.

    Potence is great for defense because it let's you do things like rip car doors off of cars and use them as shields make mighty leaps over barricades when fleeing.

    Obfuscate is greate for defense because it's super hard to kill you if people are not aware of you, also if you have the capstone ability you can make innocent bystanders look like you while hiding.

    Obtenebration is great for defense because I am contractually obligated to treat Obtenebration as a mega discipline as part of the terms of commenting on these boards.

    Vicissitude is great for defense because you can remold yourself into some thing with greater ability to soak and dodge.

    Serpentis is great for defense because it hands you a great soak power along with a low level I don't want to fight wammy.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by rat_bastard View Post
      Obtenebration is great for defense because I am contractually obligated to treat Obtenebration as a mega discipline as part of the terms of commenting on these boards.
      Is funny because it is true.


      I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

      The Malkavian Madness Network

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      • #33
        Originally posted by rat_bastard View Post
        Auspex, for awareness of threats and fortitude, for just raw ability to endure threats are two of the Holy trinity of defense, the third relies entirely on player style.

        Dominate is great for defense because it allows you to create slaves who will do their best to defend you from threats and allows you to talk down many opponents.

        Presence is great for defense because it overwhelms your opponent with emotions before they can properly harm you.

        Protean is great for defense because many of the forms allow you to flee to places your foes cannot reach or render you immune to conventional harm.

        Celerity is great for defense because a passive agility boost adds to your parry, dodge and disarm pools for free.

        Thaumaturgy is great for defense because of too many reasons to count, just remember that those rituals take serious time to enact.

        Potence is great for defense because it let's you do things like rip car doors off of cars and use them as shields make mighty leaps over barricades when fleeing.

        Obfuscate is greate for defense because it's super hard to kill you if people are not aware of you, also if you have the capstone ability you can make innocent bystanders look like you while hiding.

        Obtenebration is great for defense because I am contractually obligated to treat Obtenebration as a mega discipline as part of the terms of commenting on these boards.

        Vicissitude is great for defense because you can remold yourself into some thing with greater ability to soak and dodge.

        Serpentis is great for defense because it hands you a great soak power along with a low level I don't want to fight wammy.
        Yes, every discipline is useful. The point is that Auspex is very good for defense since you cannot hide from something you can't see, you have no reason to hide. You cannot punch something you cannot see, or dodge it, you have no reason to punch or dodge. You cannot enact a ritual unless you have good reason. You cannot transform unless you have a reason to fear.

        Sensing a threat is the First Step to avoiding it. Auspex is the precursor to defending yourself.

        And the Obtenebration snark, while funny, misses the point of those threads entirely. We could argue for days and days about the mechanics, but the anecdotes are what gets me. You have combat speced Brujah being attacked by mostly social Lasombra and getting completely trounced. I've witnessed that specific scenario twice, and I've chatted with several who have experienced the same thing. A level 3 power that summons beings which are mechanically superior to bodyguards, and with the right build are mechanically superior to many Cainites... that's not a good factor in fights.

        The rest of those points all make sense and demonstrate their defense applications quite well.
        Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-09-2017, 05:29 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

          Yes, every discipline is useful.
          Animalism.


          I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

          The Malkavian Madness Network

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          • #35
            Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

            Animalism.
            Animalism 1 and 2 are incredibly useful. I make no comments on Animalism 3+, and (god forbid) Animalism 6 and higher. Animalism 4 and 5 are good, solid level 3 powers, but not worth the price of admission.

            Seriously though, for all the flak Animalism gets, 1 and 2 are really awesome. It's a big return on investment. A character with good Animal Ken, Survival and Animalism 2 (along with the merits for dealing with animals) can get a near-infinite herd and a tonne of support from the smarter animals like cats and dogs.

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            • #36
              I don't understand why people turn their noses up at Animalism 3. It's a solid, nonviolent, subtle long term mortal pacification power. I don't think that any clan who has an affinity with animalism has in-clan access to social disciplines that can do the same thing. I can think of dozens of times in the last game I played where that power would have be AMAZINGLY useful to have.


              When one is accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by TidyGamer View Post
                It's a solid...
                Nope. Gonna stop you right there. Any power that requires multiple successes has to be analyzed carefully because of, you know, math.

                We're talking about a Manipulation+Empathy/Intimidation roll at difficulty 7 that requires as many successes as the target has WP points. Even if we assume that the target only has 3 WP, you're failing and botching this roll 11% of the time even if we go ahead and give you a dice pool of 10. A dice pool of 10, naturally, means that you built this Gangrel/Ravnos/Tzimisce/Nosferatu as a social character without the synergy you get from Dominate or Presence.

                A more reasonable dice pool for your 'average' Gangrel/Ravnos/Tzimisce/Nosferatu on the Quell the Beast roll is going to be 7 dice, meaning that failur/botch is 17% likely.

                And I'm sorry, but I don't consider a power that fails 17% of the time to be particularly solid. Compare Animalism 3 with Dominate 3, which uses a sliding difficulty of the target's current WP and requires only a single success to accomplish what the average user is going to want to do with it.


                I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                The Malkavian Madness Network

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by TidyGamer View Post
                  I don't understand why people turn their noses up at Animalism 3. It's a solid, nonviolent, subtle long term mortal pacification power. I don't think that any clan who has an affinity with animalism has in-clan access to social disciplines that can do the same thing. I can think of dozens of times in the last game I played where that power would have be AMAZINGLY useful to have.
                  I do agree with you on a basic level, but it's not a GREAT level 3 power. Compare with pretty much any level 3 power and you'll see it's... lacking. I think the best fix for Animalism would be to make level 3 and 5 the same thing and make it a level 5 power which can force frenzy or pull people out of it. 1: Talk to animals, 2: Summon animals, 3: Command Animals (you can give complex and life-threatening commands, like Conditioning, or make an animal act against its nature), 4: Possess Animal, 5: Force/Stop Frenzy.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                    I do agree with you on a basic level, but it's not a GREAT level 3 power. Compare with pretty much any level 3 power and you'll see it's... lacking. I think the best fix for Animalism would be to make level 3 and 5 the same thing and make it a level 5 power which can force frenzy or pull people out of it. 1: Talk to animals, 2: Summon animals, 3: Command Animals (you can give complex and life-threatening commands, like Conditioning, or make an animal act against its nature), 4: Possess Animal, 5: Force/Stop Frenzy.
                    Counter question: why does Animalism affect humans and vampires at all? It's a power about animals, so make all powers be about animals. You want to affect people - learn Dominate.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

                      Animalism.
                      Animalism, just like Dominate, is extremely front loaded. Compared to "grow claws", "make shadow puppets" and "save-or-die eyes" that Protean, Obtenebration and Serpentis give you, "mind control people" and "mind control animals" are super amazing broad powers. Once you have Dominate 3 and Animalism 2, you don't really need to go deeper into either because you've already hit the best and the most varied powers. I mean, "mind control" and "animal insect control" are Xavier's and Skitter's entire power sets and no one complains that they are weak superheroes. Ability to summon and command dogs, rats, pigeons and everything else takes care of all your feeding needs, offense and defense, espionage and so on.

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                      • #41
                        Vampire is a game about classical and personal horror, where knowing what you're contending with is 9/10ths of the battle rather than half of it. Auspex gives you a huge advantage in knowing, and is vastly powerful because of that.

                        Side note: I prefer telepathy at Auspex 6. Constant, uninterruptible, undetectable, incorruptible communication with your thralls over hundreds of miles is an extremely advantageous power for the discerning Elder looking to expand or maintain their influence. Subverting my thralls? What's that?

                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                        One of my PCs is a Caitiff with Combat Disciplines all at 2-4, so Obfuscate, Protean, the Physicals, Auspex... and he tried sneaking up on my version of Mithras while he was distracted with the other PCs. When he got within a few steps he only got 5 successes on the stealth roll to remain quiet, and Mithras got 9 successes, resulting in the PC being hoisted up by Movement of the Mind while Mithras laughed "did you think I couldn't see you, clanless scum?". Obfuscate didn't matter, it was just the sound of his shoe softly touching the ground.

                        The next session an explosion was set off near the PCs, and this allowed Mithras to find them, and he focused in on the leader and combined Farsight with Command from Afar and Chains of Obedience to Dominate him to bow. When he refused he took Damage. He repeated this over and over until the PC fell into Torpor (however he managed to resist bowing thanks to his Willpower 10 and Iron Will, which terrified Mithras to no end). That's only possible because of Auspex 6. He can hear an explosion and think "hmm, I'll look for Vampires near that explosion" and within a minute he has found the PCs and can use Dominate on them via his Auspex.
                        Have to ask, what brought your PCs into direct open conflict with a Methuselah? That sounds like a situation that results in everyone in the coterie being extremely dead in quite a hurry.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Zanos View Post
                          Have to ask, what brought your PCs into direct open conflict with a Methuselah? That sounds like a situation that results in everyone in the coterie being extremely dead in quite a hurry.
                          In case you forgot, vampires are immortal. This means that the only way to ever get a promotion is to make sure the guy whose place you want to take never wakes up.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                            In case you forgot, vampires are immortal. This means that the only way to ever get a promotion is to make sure the guy whose place you want to take never wakes up.
                            Sure, but most vampires have enough brain cells to rub together to realize that attempting to rub out an active Methuselah is the one of the most foolish of fools errands. Most vampires are content with never attempting it, at least. If i learned the was an active 4th generation Methuselah anywhere near my area of influence I would suck up or get out, not try to off it. Most other courses of action are pretty much guaranteed death sentences.

                            So yeah, I would say that PCs being in open conflict with a Methuselah is somewhat uncommon situation, and was therefore curious.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                              Counter question: why does Animalism affect humans and vampires at all? It's a power about animals, so make all powers be about animals. You want to affect people - learn Dominate.
                              Concentrate. Controlling The Beast is very different to controlling emotions or people's minds. There's a good reason that Animalism should cover Beast-related powers; the Beast is literally an animalistic presence.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Zanos View Post
                                Sure, but most vampires have enough brain cells to rub together to realize that attempting to rub out an active Methuselah is the one of the most foolish of fools errands. Most vampires are content with never attempting it, at least. If i learned the was an active 4th generation Methuselah anywhere near my area of influence I would suck up or get out, not try to off it. Most other courses of action are pretty much guaranteed death sentences.

                                So yeah, I would say that PCs being in open conflict with a Methuselah is somewhat uncommon situation, and was therefore curious.
                                One PC accidentally woke Mithras up (I'm diverging from his canon death), but they woke up an enemy of his at the same time. While she's infinitely weaker she's just powerful enough to keep them out of "welcome to death town" levels of danger. And he used a combination of Farsight, Command From Afar and Chains of Agony to force one of the PCs into Torpor by ordering him to bow, which led to him taking Aggravated damage every time he resisted until he fell into Torpor from sheer mental shock. I'm not downplaying his power levels, my PCs just have Natures which defy control and high Willpower, which is why they piss him off so much. Luckily for him his Dominated hive of BSDs will make short work of the PCs if they aren't smart about their next move.

                                The current feel is that it's a mini-Gehenna. The night he woke up, Lamdiel and Ur-Shulgi rose, and a red star appeared in the West (not the East, as prophecised) for about 5 minutes. Seers (those with Insight) proclaimed the names of the risen Methesulahs and pointed to the star, stating "it's here to greet them". They wouldn't fight him if they could avoid it, but running would be even more dumb than fighting him. He's low on blood right now and his feeding pool is Other Ventrue and nothing else. If they do nothing he will fulfill his intent of becoming Prince of Albion, and that will mean the entire country is under the rule of something WORSE than the Camarilla. They're Anarchs, so that pisses them off. And he's still shaking off his Torpor and is nowhere near his full blood pool, and is still not 100% up to speed on modern existence. If they wait a week he'll go from Almost Unkillable to Blood God on Earth.

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