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"I Lift Elysium" - Mechanical 'Thought Experiment'

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  • "I Lift Elysium" - Mechanical 'Thought Experiment'

    A while back my friend PixiekillerEin and I (mutual STs and players of eachother's games) came up with a concept called "I Lift Elysium". This is an extreme Player Action which is TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE but crosses the boundaries of what is allowed and what should be allowed. "Lift Elysium" is the action that poor STs can only veto through "you can't because I say so" and requires quick thinking from better STs who find a logical reason why it would be prevented or wouldn't work, rather than bullshitting. Brilliant STs won't bat an eye and will have a logical world in place which abhors such behaviour and will respond naturally and realistically.

    So, here is how you Lift Elysium.

    Your Character's Strength doesn't matter. They only need to pump their Strength to 10. Beyond that, Potence 5 is required. Willpower 10 is desirable. Huge Size is helpful. Invest in Athletics, focusing on the lifting of heavy weights. If your ST is silly (this definitely will not fly, just a side note) you could try and be an Abomination since the Strength boost of Crinos is desirable, but again we're not going to need that.

    Spiritus 1 is also extremely useful, and should be paired with the highest Occult and Manipulation levels you can wrangle.

    Next you ask your ST, almost jokingly, how much strength one would need to "lift Elysium". That is, dig your hands in and pull Elysium away from its foundations, fundamentally shifting its center of gravity. Now you might flippantly say "100", but just look at the logarithmic nature of the Strength Feat chart.

    https://gyazo.com/13fa3141cec4d09990d89aa03b5fb447

    Between Strength 3 and Strength 5 we have a shift of 400 lbs, and between Strength 10 and Strength 12 we have an increase of 1500 lbs. At this point the ST must agree to your logic that a rating of, say, 25 might be fair to pick up a chunk of the building and start lifting it. Now, imagine a character with a Strength rating of 29.

    "Impossible!" I hear you say. Hear me out.

    By rolling Willpower (difficulty 8 I believe) we can boost our Strength of 10 to 11. Our Potence pushes things to 16. Our Huge Size adds 2 (I believe) dice to this roll, making 18. Then we activate Spiritus 1 (the turn before we lift), and get an average of 5.2 successes with our optimized build, pushed up to 6 successes with Willpower. This power adds to your dicepool to manipulate a certain object, and here we gain dice to our roll to lift. Now with Lifting it's an automatic feat, not a roll, and so we simply tally up our Strength of 24. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE. We're not going to let those Potence dots go to waste, we're going to Activate our Potence so that they become 10s (the value of the die is kind of moot as we aren't rolling, we're doing an automatic feat, however this is one of those grey areas; plenty of STs will say no at this point, but hey-ho). Since we are speced into Weightlifting, those 10s count as 2 successes and our Potence is effectively 10 rather than 5 for this purpose. Strength of 29. Even if we're harsh and say that the Strength chart sticks to a 1000 lbs per level progression (not very likely in my opinion, I think it's safe to assume it would jump to a bigger gap in lbs in each level at some point), that's a lifting power of 30,000 lbs. Not enough to deadlift or throw Elysium, but toppling it over in one explosive movement should be a piece of cake ;-)

    It should be noted that this only works if the ST agrees, even jokingly, to a number at the beginning. They need to play along at the start, otherwise there isn't any social contract pulling them into this thread of insane power trips.

    Intentions of this concept:

    - To be funny.

    - To demonstrate how ridiculous min-maxed and speced concepts can be if the ST allows them to get out of hand.

    - To demonstrate how badly the rules can break the world if the ST doesn't step in and set reasonable, sensible limitations.

    - To give a tip to those who are stuck in god-awful games with lackluster STs and want to watch the world burn with their newly formulated replacement character.

    - To ask readers if there is a way to push the Strength rating even higher here. A solid 30 would be nice.
    Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-12-2017, 07:50 PM.

  • #2
    New Piece of terminology:
    Lifting Elysium: the act of min-maxing your character to ridiculous proportions just to punish the ST for being lazy

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    • #3
      So basically this is to wreak everyone's good time because the St is a little unsteady? Also a great way to never get invited back to a game.

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      • #4
        Oh wow, that's a HUGE amount of liberal interpretation of the rules (to say the least)... Where to begin (non exhaustive list I'm sure)

        -Huge size only add Health level & MAY give bonus on some strength actions (lift is not listed in the potential options

        -How do you increase Strength by rolling Willpower? I am not familiar with that rule?

        -Spiritus 1 gives you a bonus to use the object as intended, that's not what you are doing, plus it would just make out lift more skillfully, but not more that what your strength + potence will allow
        You could use Spiritus 3 for strength of the Bear +2 in strength, though I'm not sure you can actually go above strength 10 (without including potence)

        -Spending a blood point on Potence gives auto success, not 10's, any other interpretaion is no RAW or RAI & purely power gaming, the wording is not even confusing

        Now, if you were to try to lift such a structure & have the correct strength, or even something lighter, like say a car... you'd end up with the piece you grasped breaking/detaching from the main structure because it wouldn't be able to support the weight of the rest (I think there is a few article & maybe youtube videos about that in super hero universe)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kendaan View Post
          -How do you increase Strength by rolling Willpower? I am not familiar with that rule?
          When performing a strength feat, your overall Strength value (your strength + potence) dictates how much you can lift/break etc. You can raise this with a Willpower roll difficulty 9, each success adds one to your feat rating.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Kendaan View Post
            Oh wow, that's a HUGE amount of liberal interpretation of the rules (to say the least)... Where to begin (non exhaustive list I'm sure)

            -Huge size only add Health level & MAY give bonus on some strength actions (lift is not listed in the potential options

            -How do you increase Strength by rolling Willpower? I am not familiar with that rule?

            -Spiritus 1 gives you a bonus to use the object as intended, that's not what you are doing, plus it would just make out lift more skillfully, but not more that what your strength + potence will allow
            You could use Spiritus 3 for strength of the Bear +2 in strength, though I'm not sure you can actually go above strength 10 (without including potence)

            -Spending a blood point on Potence gives auto success, not 10's, any other interpretaion is no RAW or RAI & purely power gaming, the wording is not even confusing

            Now, if you were to try to lift such a structure & have the correct strength, or even something lighter, like say a car... you'd end up with the piece you grasped breaking/detaching from the main structure because it wouldn't be able to support the weight of the rest (I think there is a few article & maybe youtube videos about that in super hero universe)
            - The Huge Size thing is debatable.

            - By rolling Willpower and getting a success you can push yourself up 1 dot for the purposes of Strength feats. It's a rule in V20 Core.

            - Spiritus 1 gives you extra dice to use an object. That's a sensible response, but RAW it doesn't have to be the intended use of the object since intended use is entirely subjective.

            - Spending blood on Potence doesn't make the dice into 10s in V20, you're correct. Having just checked the V20 rules it makes them into "Automatic Successes" which is already what you're doing with Lifting. I believe there was a version where the dice were just 10s by default, not sure which. I'm guessing this was removed since it could be dangerous when mixed with the Spec system.

            - Potence is combined with the Mandatory Secondary Power of things kind of obeying your commands. The ground doesn't crack beneath you and your body doesn't crumple when you lift something heavy. Besides, most Tabletop games go kind of cinematic RE physics, with people leaping away from explosions. It's a story, and lifting works the way it works in comics, TV and film.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PixiekillerEin View Post

              When performing a strength feat, your overall Strength value (your strength + potence) dictates how much you can lift/break etc. You can raise this with a Willpower roll difficulty 9, each success adds one to your feat rating.
              Isn't it limited to pushing you up by 1 level in the feat chart? I thought it was only 1 extra point.

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              • #8
                He's also using his blood to increase his strength rating as stated in V20 core rulebook pg 258 "​​ Spending blood to raise Physical Attributes or power Disciplines may be done automatically, without the need for concentration. A character may spend an amount of vitae equal to her per-turn rating, as dictated by her Generation "

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post
                  So basically this is to wreak everyone's good time because the St is a little unsteady? Also a great way to never get invited back to a game.
                  Kindly read the title of the thread.

                  Now you might be referring to my bullet point saying it's a way out for people in god-awful games. Firstly anyone can read that as humour since that's obviously the intent. Secondly, "god-awful" is left up to interpretation. "This ST is a tad clueless so I'm ruining everything for everyone" is a deliberately (and possibly disingenuously) harsh reading of this light-hearted thread.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                    Isn't it limited to pushing you up by 1 level in the feat chart? I thought it was only 1 extra point.
                    Feat rating = level on the feat chart

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                    • #11
                      • Lifting/Breaking [Strength]: The following chart provides the minimum Strength needed to deadlift various weights or break objects without a die roll. Characters of lower Strength may roll to affect heavier weights than their Strength ratings allow for. The roll is made not with Strength, but with Willpower, and is difficulty 9. Each success advances the character by one level on the chart.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PixiekillerEin View Post
                        • Lifting/Breaking [Strength]: The following chart provides the minimum Strength needed to deadlift various weights or break objects without a die roll. Characters of lower Strength may roll to affect heavier weights than their Strength ratings allow for. The roll is made not with Strength, but with Willpower, and is difficulty 9. Each success advances the character by one level on the chart.
                        So spend 1 dot of Willpower on this and have Willpower 10, and you're averaging 3 successes ;-)

                        Hey, there isn't a rule explicitly saying that you can't roll Willpower here (even if it feels like it's going against the spirit of the rule, and I wouldn't personally okay such a use of temporary Willpower).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                          So spend 1 dot of Willpower on this and have Willpower 10, and you're averaging 3 successes ;-)

                          Hey, there isn't a rule explicitly saying that you can't roll Willpower here (even if it feels like it's going against the spirit of the rule, and I wouldn't personally okay such a use of temporary Willpower).

                          I don't quite agree with being able to spend Willpower on a Willpower roll

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PixiekillerEin View Post


                            I don't quite agree with being able to spend Willpower on a Willpower roll
                            That's why I say it goes against the spirit of it. But you would let a Tremere spend Willpower on a Lure of Flames roll, as would I, so it's one of those things where an ST just has to be sensible and keep control of things.

                            And if we really want to get silly, we can use Path of the Focused Mind 5 to lower all of these Difficulties by 2 and add a few extra dice.

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                            • #15
                              Also, if you only want to drag Elysium, rather than straight up lift it and the ST is on your side: "At the Storyteller’s discretion, your character’s effective Strength may be raised if all she wants to do is drag something a short distance instead of pick it up."

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