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Which clans are Common/Uncommon in the Anarch community?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    Lian I remember that at the very least Old Skool mentions that plenty of Tremere join it when they join the Anarchs as a fuck you to the Tremere.
    Perhaps, but the "Old Skool" is still, first and foremost, a creation by traditionalist blood magicians, for traditionalist blood magicians. No one "created" the Old Skool; it came into being organically, from a thousand separate, distinct mystical styles, as practiced by a thousand separate, distinct kindred. These are medicine men from Africa and America, preserving the beliefs and practices of cultures that may have otherwise been stamped out. These are the methusalahs harking back to ancient Rome; priests who still make the sacrifices to the old gods.

    A whole lot of folks who were mortal when they learned their arts, and joined the Anarchs to continue practicing those arts in relative peace. And their students, of course. I suspect the "Old Skool", in response to the filthy Tremere Usurpers coming in and trying to establish themselves in the Anarchs, would start taking a bunch of new apprentices, just to combat that incursion. And I am suspicious of any suggestion that these blood magicians would be happy about letting Tremere join their ranks. Putting aside the ever-present fear that these "Anarch Tremere" are just double agents for the Pyramid, Clan Tremere is a large part of why Old Skool blood sorcerers have to collect among the Anarchs in the first place. That old priest of Apollo might have been a respected elder in his day, before the Warlocks came and cast doubts on the safety of his traditional devotions.

    That's not even getting into the fact that a lot of the Hackavist blood sorcerers are Tremere "defectors". Tremere with their newfangled techno-toys. I don't see traditionalists having a high opinion of these modern sorceries. That drives a wedge between the two factions even further.


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    • #17
      What "distinct magical styles" are you talking about? What "traditionalist blood magicians"? Vampires don't just invent disciplines - you either have it in clan, learn from another vampire or you don't have it at all. Tremere, Setites or Assamites had to have taught Anarchs how to do thaumaturgy or there is no thaumaturgy. Just because a Brujah methuselah is an ordained priests making sacrifices to Zeus doesn't mean those sacrifices do anything or that Zeus exists. That old priest of Apollo was respected in his day because people were superstitious and believed in Apollo, not because he had any special power to smite them with the bow of light. Just like, you know, in real life priests had and have a ton of power and respect despite the distinct lack of any special power in them.
      Last edited by Kammerer; 03-15-2017, 09:53 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
        What "distinct magical styles" are you talking about? What "traditionalist blood magicians"? Vampires don't just invent disciplines - you either have it in clan, learn from another vampire or you don't have it at all. Tremere, Setites or Assamites had to have taught Anarchs how to do thaumaturgy or there is no thaumaturgy.
        That's actually incorrect, first, there is mention of Inceptor creating new disciplines & probably bloodlines.

        And then purely about blood magic, you got the perfect exemple of Koldunism, which no one has as an in clan disciplines (which I find lame seeing all the clans/bloodlines with a blood magic).

        Also it's mention several time that Thaumaturgy existed before the Tremere & differently than Dur Anki or Setites sorcery, though quite rare & practiced by individuals rather than clan

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        • #19
          Sorcerers and Mages can convert their magic into blood sorcery. Embraced Verbena CAN learn Thaumaturgy without a teacher. Although mechanically the same, her Thaumaturgy is different than practices of Tremere.

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          • #20
            I always figured that the Setites would be well established in the Anarch movement, given their whole deal of wanting to undermine, disrupt and otherwise tear down the Aeonic/Apollonian derived prisons of the modern world. A nice collection of Nietzschean intellectuals, chaos magicians, anarchists revolutionaries, and assorted perverts.

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            • #21
              There are actually Tremere among the Anarchs.

              The trick is to separate the ones that are actually Anarchs from the ones that are just there to monitor Anarch communities and peddle thaumaturgy to Anarch circles. Most of them are in the later category. There are extremely few actual, real Anarch Tremere. Between the blood bond, the decades of indoctrination, the Tremere's careful selection of childer, and the clan actively hunting down traitors, you'd be hard pressed to find one.

              Remember, Tremere are Clan>Camarilla>Self. If the Clan demands it, going against the Camarilla is not out of the question.
              Last edited by Zanos; 03-15-2017, 08:34 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Zanos View Post
                There are actually Tremere among the Anarchs.

                The trick is to separate the ones that are actually Anarchs from the ones that are just there to monitor Anarch communities and peddle thaumaturgy to Anarch circles. Most of them are in the later category. There are extremely few actual, real Anarch Tremere. Between the blood bond, the decades of indoctrination, the Tremere's careful selection of childer, and the clan actively hunting down traitors, you'd be hard pressed to find one.

                Remember, Tremere are Clan>Camarilla>Self. If the Clan demands it, going against the Camarilla is not out of the question.
                Additionally, Anarchs Unbound makes the point actual Tremere Anarchs have a better use than being out in the wild, hunted by their own clan: infiltrating the Pyramid, and feeding fellow Anarchs whatever they can learn. Which is about the most dangerous form, of the most dangerous form, of the most dangerous game out there, but the point still stands there are likely more Anarch Tremere still inside the Pyramid, than outside. Being we're talking about a clan whose disciplines are Auspex, Dominate, and Thaumaturgy, there are so many different iterations and possibilities out there even opening the discussion is a thread unto itself, and the true loyalties of any Tremere claiming to be Anarch are to be met with, bare minimum, extreme skepticism.

                Just about the worst-case scenario I can think of, is a Tremere who's actually been dominated by their Regent to only think they've broken the Chalice, are acting as a deep-cover sleeper agent, with a nominal hunt by Quaesitorae to maintain the facade of being a "true" Anarch, least of all to the Tremere themselves.

                Honestly, the one bloodline I don't see having an explicit Anarch presence, with there being every reason to be there, are Telyavs. It'd be easier for them to hide among Anarchs masquerading as Toreador or Caitiff, only practicing their magic when they know it's safe, than it ever would be to practice openly as a Sabbat antitribu and be openly hunted with their secret potentially laid bare for all. Hell, I'm playing a Telyav in the Anarch game I'm in now, doing exactly that (masquerading as a Torrie).

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                  What "distinct magical styles" are you talking about? What "traditionalist blood magicians"? Vampires don't just invent disciplines - you either have it in clan, learn from another vampire or you don't have it at all. Tremere, Setites or Assamites had to have taught Anarchs how to do thaumaturgy or there is no thaumaturgy.
                  As others have pointed out, any mortal practitioner can transfer their occult knowledge to blood sorcery upon being Embraced, regardless of what their magical style was. Rites of the Blood states that many practitioners of modern pop magic were able to make their otherwise mundane practices power, via the aid of Vitae (not that this is even necessary, as mortal Sorcery and True Magick exist, in basically any style you can imagine). The original Sorcerer book had rules for transferring dots in mortal Sorcery Paths into dots of blood sorcery Paths. Or even Disciplines, as several Paths of mortal Sorcery fit Disciplines (Path of Shapeshifting becomes Protean, Astral Projection becomes Auspex, Fascination becomes Presence, etc).

                  Styles of blood magic aren't monolithic entities, immutable and incomparable. Paths are shared across different schools of blood sorcery - most blood magic sourcebooks have lists of Paths that transfer over, and what the given style's practitioners happen to call them. The styles established in canon - Thaumaturgy, Dur-An-ki, Ahku, etc. - had to come from somewhere. We know for a fact that Thaumaturgy is the result of former House Tremere adapting their Hermetic arts to the powers of blood. We have every reason to believe this sort of thing has happened and continues to happen all the time. The ones given in-depth write-ups are just the ones we happen to know about, and that have large communities of followers (or, in the case of Thaumaturgy, an organized Mystery Cult that teaches it to all of its members as a matter of course).

                  What we call the "Old Skool" is just a blanket under which disparate, often solitary practitioners of ancient blood magics are filed.


                  Just because a Brujah methuselah is an ordained priests making sacrifices to Zeus doesn't mean those sacrifices do anything or that Zeus exists. That old priest of Apollo was respected in his day because people were superstitious and believed in Apollo, not because he had any special power to smite them with the bow of light. Just like, you know, in real life priests had and have a ton of power and respect despite the distinct lack of any special power in them.
                  First, I've already stated that it is canonical that Vitae can give power even to practices that would otherwise have no power. If that priest of Apollo had no magical might from his practices before the Embrace, he very well could have developed them after. Especially since sacrifice and blood magic go hand in hand. And as Dur-An-Ki illustrated (in the book Blood Sacrifice), a covenant with a deity can afford a blood magician power. Prayers and ceremony are just as valid an avenue towards gaining magical might as the secular arts of the Tremere. Even covenants with Jehovah or Allah work - Dur-An-Ki practitioners eschew them mainly because they have a large number of active worshippers, and thus a lot of True Faith behind them. (Ironically, this makes the Apollo priest more secure in his methods, as there are few people around who actively worship Apollo or the other Greco-Roman gods).

                  Second, while (mortal) priests may not gain any special powers from their piety in the Real World, they most certainly can and do in the World of Darkness. Aside from the aforementioned True Faith, both Sorcery Paths and True Magick can be (and are) channeled through religion. The Celestial Chorus has its fair share of Sorcerers, Mages, and those with True Faith in their ranks, and they're just the ones devoted to various flavors of monotheism. Tremere-style Hermeticism is fairly unique among magical practices (that aren't relatively new) in its secularism; even mortal Hermeticism can acknowledge and work with various flavors of godhead (whether that be Greco-Roman or Egyptian pantheons, Hermes Trismagistus, the Christian God, a Platonic vision of The One, or others).

                  So it's not only possible for a priest of Apollo to already have had at least Sorcery during life, it's perhaps even likely, if the person was Embraced from the highest levels of the priesthood, or from one of the many Mystery Cults that flourished in Rome. (I guess he would be called Helios, but it's an academic distinction). His sacrifices could very well be used as Ritual components.

                  Third, a god does not stop being magically relevant if their worshipers drop in number. The popularity (or lack thereof) of ancient gods hasn't stopped practitioners of Dur-An-Ki or Ahku, who are capable of wielding magic as well as ever. Same with mortal magicians, Awakened or not. So long as the blood sorcerer herself believes in the power of that god, they can channel power through them.

                  EDIT: Fourth, Zeus does exist in the World of Darkness. You can go into the Astral Umbra and talk to him. A Vampire might even be able to do it, if their Auspex was high enough. Whether he's an actual deity or just a manifestation of the concept of Zeus is immaterial, as he is regardless a powerful spiritual entity inhabiting a higher plane of existence, and sometimes interferes with the material world. I think the Brujah Methuselah has a case.
                  Last edited by Bluecho; 03-16-2017, 02:31 AM.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                    What "distinct magical styles" are you talking about? What "traditionalist blood magicians"? Vampires don't just invent disciplines - you either have it in clan, learn from another vampire or you don't have it at all. Tremere, Setites or Assamites had to have taught Anarchs how to do thaumaturgy or there is no thaumaturgy. Just because a Brujah methuselah is an ordained priests making sacrifices to Zeus doesn't mean those sacrifices do anything or that Zeus exists. That old priest of Apollo was respected in his day because people were superstitious and believed in Apollo, not because he had any special power to smite them with the bow of light. Just like, you know, in real life priests had and have a ton of power and respect despite the distinct lack of any special power in them.

                    In real life there were no priests of Apollo doing magical things. IN real life there are no Christian priests turning vampires with the power of True Faith. And obviously in real life there are not vampires.

                    However in a universe where Vampires exist magic that calls upon the Pagan gods seems to have functioned on some level and for some. That some were embraced and kept their powers seems to be the situation. The Tremre being an organized wizard clan is a WIERD thing it bends the natural situation which is some people from various clans coming in with a smattering of Magic. That some clans have a level of focus on this doesn't change the situation. There are plenty of non assamite Duranki practioners and no clan calls Sadhuhana its own.

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                    • #25
                      As mention previously, the majority of Sorcerers who get Embraced tend to spontaneously develop Necromancy or Thaumaturgy (and Caitiff can spontaneously develop Necromancy or Thaumaturgy). Beyond that, the Setites are quite willing to teach anyone who joins their religion Setite Sorcery and the practitioners of Wanga are willing to teach any suitable student that is properly respectful and honors the Loa.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        As mention previously, the majority of Sorcerers who get Embraced tend to spontaneously develop Necromancy or Thaumaturgy (and Caitiff can spontaneously develop Necromancy or Thaumaturgy). Beyond that, the Setites are quite willing to teach anyone who joins their religion Setite Sorcery and the practitioners of Wanga are willing to teach any suitable student that is properly respectful and honors the Loa.
                        Why do you think Caitiff can randomly develop Blood Magic? As of Rites of Blood, Blood Magic is an unnatural but potent application of Vitae which can be called a "quasi-Discipline", it's not something Caine naturally developed, it's something that you get when you mix Being A Vampire with years, decades, centuries and millenia of occult study. Creating Blood Magic like the Vitreous Path or the Path of Blood is something that took actual huge societies of True Mages who became Vampires years to sort out. While I'll happily accept Sorcerers and Mages who get embraced manifesting Blood Magic (it's a good solution) I think that a suitable drawback is that it's a unique style which they can't teach to others (short of teaching someone who started off with similar Sorcerous leanings). The Tremere, Nagaraja, Giovanni; they had to formalize and study for decades to create magical forms which could be easily taught to others. If getting Sepulchre was as simple as embracing a mortal Medium, then I don't think the Giovani would have been necessary, and we wouldn't have the Giovanni. No, Cappadocius had to embrace a whole family of Sorcerers and give them decades to develop their arts, he didn't get one Sorcerer, embrace them, steal the path and disseminate it.

                        So, can Caitiff randomly get Blood Magic? I'd say no. Not without a Sorcerous background, mystical interference from a third party, or a history of involvement with a group which practises Blood Magic. I mean even random Tremere don't just get Blood Magic. If you embrace a random person as a Tremere and dump them in the woods, chances are you either have a Caitiff or a Tremere with Dominate and Auspex. Blood Magic is knowledge, not innate power.

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                        • #27
                          I would say, unless they are embraced by some very prominent members of the Movement, most Toreador, Tremere, and Ventrue would have an extremely difficult time being accepted. They just don't have a lot to bring to the table compared to the extremely high probability that they are spies or monkey wrenches. It's probably less any sort of "Clanism" as it is that there have just been way, way too many terrible experiences in the past, and that those Clan's strengths simply do not really play well into the Movement's overall goals.

                          Now, granted, no Clan is a monolith, but, at the same time, stereotypes are there for a really, really good reason.

                          Brujah and Gangrel are pretty numerous, only second to Caitiff. After the Gangrel leaving the Camarilla, (if you follow that), might even be a lot closer to equal.

                          There is no such thing as an Anarch Nosferatu, just like there is no such thing as a Camarilla Nosferatu or a Sabbat Nosferatu. They are all just Nosferatu. :P

                          Malkavians are somewhere in the middle, as always.

                          Tzimisce and Lasombra (Antitribu or not) are basically non-existent.

                          The other Independents kind of go without saying.


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                          • #28
                            Beckett I have to disagree, strongly. Plenty of Toreador "go anarch". Whether they're truly SERIOUS as Anarchs is another matter, since rebellion is quite performative.

                            As for Tzimisce and Lasombra, the Anarch movement is the remnants of the proto-Sabbat, and therefore there are Magisters and Fiends among the Elders of the Anarchs, and they are a rarity within the movement but they are most certainly present.

                            Independents, naturally, are rare. But whether San Diego is ruled by a Prince or a Baron, there will be a Giovanni there. You don't get "Camarilla" Independents, by and large, as they typically just pay lip service to the Sect, so it's a moot question arguably.

                            And... no. Nosferatu are split into their own little feuding families in many cases, and these splits can occur along Sect lines. Yes, the underground is its own domain and city, and yes the Nosferatu are a relatively familial clan, but Nosferatu Antitribu are monsters who think they are blessed with a monstrous visage, who decorate their havens with the organs of their kills and beg Tzimisce to make their pets and ghouls as ugly as them (as a stereotype). A Nosferatu who turns up to Anarch meetings is probably a techie linked into Schreknet and the Information Exchange, and won't feel any bond with Hans The Shredder or the Prince's underground spy Marcus. Simply lumping in all Nosferatu together feels like a bad move, and I don't think it accurately reflects the lore either. Is it because they're ugly? I've noticed that you can trick your PCs very easily using Nosferatu and Gargoyles. I had a crafty Gargoyle who pretended to be a Wight for ages as a ploy, and used Obfuscate 3 while not acting as a Wight. When he eventually revealed that "it was just a prank", the PCs legitimately gasped because Ugly = Monster is such an ingrained trope and it's so easy to play with. Saying "Nosferatu are all the same" is like saying "Toreador are all on the same page". Yes, Toreador all go to the big parties and this ignores sect lines quite often. No, this doesn't mean that the lines get incredibly blurred. There is fraternization, to an extent. There is still a divide.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                              Beckett I have to disagree, strongly. Plenty of Toreador "go anarch". Whether they're truly SERIOUS as Anarchs is another matter, since rebellion is quite performative.
                              Honestly, I think the difference between real Anarach and poser Anarch is kind of irrelevant, as I was more trying to say I doubt that the Movement in general would accept them at all in most cases. The risk is just too much for so little reward. Now, you are free to disagree, I'm simply stating my opinion.

                              Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                              And... no. Nosferatu are split into their own little feuding families in many cases, and these splits can occur along Sect lines. Yes, the underground is its own domain and city, and yes the Nosferatu are a relatively familial clan, but Nosferatu Antitribu are monsters who think they are blessed with a monstrous visage, who decorate their havens with the organs of their kills and beg Tzimisce to make their pets and ghouls as ugly as them (as a stereotype). A Nosferatu who turns up to Anarch meetings is probably a techie linked into Schreknet and the Information Exchange, and won't feel any bond with Hans The Shredder or the Prince's underground spy Marcus. Simply lumping in all Nosferatu together feels like a bad move, and I don't think it accurately reflects the lore either. Is it because they're ugly? I've noticed that you can trick your PCs very easily using Nosferatu and Gargoyles. I had a crafty Gargoyle who pretended to be a Wight for ages as a ploy, and used Obfuscate 3 while not acting as a Wight. When he eventually revealed that "it was just a prank", the PCs legitimately gasped because Ugly = Monster is such an ingrained trope and it's so easy to play with. Saying "Nosferatu are all the same" is like saying "Toreador are all on the same page". Yes, Toreador all go to the big parties and this ignores sect lines quite often. No, this doesn't mean that the lines get incredibly blurred. There is fraternization, to an extent. There is still a divide.
                              Actually, according to the lore, Nosferatu are individuals first, Clan second, and Sect last. Which is kind of the point. A Camarilla Nos and a Sabbat Nos might not agree on a lot, BUT, no matter who is right, they are both screwed. Their founder and his other Clan want to exterminate them. ALL of them. So, for the most part, Camarilla Nosferatu and Sabbat Nosferatu still talk, share dirt on others, trade secrets, and have very strong Clan ties, even across Sects. The Clan is very mercenary.


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                              • #30
                                Beckett If Nosferatu are all individuals, isn't "there's no such thing as an Anarch Nosferatu, a Camarilla Nosferatu or a Sabbat Nosferatu, they're just Nosferatu" a kind of inaccurate statement? How do you stereotype a group of individuals, really?

                                I think it's safe to say that you will find a decent number of Nosferatu who genuinely believe in the Anarch cause. Remember that the Anarch Manifesto heavily leans on "accept disenfranchised kindred", and who is more disenfranchised than the person who can only really get Domain in a sewer? Do you really think the Nosferatu WANT to live in sewers? It's convenient, it grants power, and you can definitely get used to it, but it's also because getting Domain above ground will be harder as they are Masquerade breaches and this is an easy excuse for a bigoted Prince. Nosferatu and Malkavians (and to a lesser extent, Gangrel), of all the Camarilla Clans (not counting the Brujah), probably have the best motivation to join the Anarchs since they enter into a society which is keen to prostrate itself on what some would describe as the altar of political correctness. The Anarch movement is keen to be cosmopolitan and at least superficially equal and open. Obviously members of the community will have their own prejudices and political agendas, just like the Camarilla, but the overall message is that it's not a place of discrimination. Remember that some Anarchs go as far as saying "we're all Clanless now". [One of my older Anarch NPCs, while brainstorming with the PCs on how to draw in a wider audience, suggested using the slogan. The two Caitiff PCs cringed and tried to explain just how... deeply paternalistic and patronizing the phrase is, how it kind of appropriates their struggle as people who literally have no Clan. This was followed up by the Malkavian PC asking the NPC to stop "clansplaining". Fun times.]
                                Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-17-2017, 08:15 PM.

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