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  • #91
    Originally posted by Beckett View Post
    Read literally one line before and after your highlight.
    Besides, it's the segment on "appearance", which is based on what you see and what people interpret visually. Furthermore, I've yet to see the pale skin of Ur-Shulgi's descendants be addressed. Or the fact that his "dark" skin is accompanied by burns, an odd coincidence since if I were a secret Baali hidden among the Assamites I would burn myself sharpish to cover up the whole "no curse of Darkening" thing.

    And yes, odd that the totally-just-an-Assamite guy would kick out every religious Assamite and start a group devoted to rejecting mortal religion and embracing his own interpretation of the Law or Haqim. Odd that he would break a curse which keeps the Assamites at a higher humanity level on average, and odd that he would make no apparent attempt to break the curse that turns them into blood-hungry zealots. It's almost like the writers are trying not to baby us. I wish that they did this sort of thing more often, TBH. The Nictuku were ruined by the writers outright telling us everything about them and leaving no mystery.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
      Odd that he would break a curse which keeps the Assamites at a higher humanity level on average
      I'm calling foul. Saying that your average non-Assamite is a diablerist does not fit the published material nor does it make any sense with the Camarilla's view on diablerie.

      Your first point is easily explained by Ur-Shulgi going for a power grab or being a heretic. Interpretation of [Religious Text] is by far the most common source for herecies.
      And since we are dealing with magic rather than science, it may very well be that Ur-Shulgi can't break the Baali curse despite all his talent. It may be because the Baali curse is based on Daimonion 5 rather than Thaumaturgy and Ur-Shulgi doesn't have the slightest idea how to approach it. Or it may be that Ur-Shulgi is simply incapable of breaking it. Because he's too weak, too old, too young, wrong clan, wrong gender - whatever. If the ritual for breaking the Baali curse requires you to be a 700 years old transgendered virgin and has to be performed under the exact alignment of stars then you can be ten times the thaumaturgist Ur-Shulgi is and still be unable to break it.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
        I'm calling foul. Saying that your average non-Assamite is a diablerist does not fit the published material nor does it make any sense with the Camarilla's view on diablerie.

        Your first point is easily explained by Ur-Shulgi going for a power grab or being a heretic. Interpretation of [Religious Text] is by far the most common source for herecies.
        And since we are dealing with magic rather than science, it may very well be that Ur-Shulgi can't break the Baali curse despite all his talent. It may be because the Baali curse is based on Daimonion 5 rather than Thaumaturgy and Ur-Shulgi doesn't have the slightest idea how to approach it. Or it may be that Ur-Shulgi is simply incapable of breaking it. Because he's too weak, too old, too young, wrong clan, wrong gender - whatever. If the ritual for breaking the Baali curse requires you to be a 700 years old transgendered virgin and has to be performed under the exact alignment of stars then you can be ten times the thaumaturgist Ur-Shulgi is and still be unable to break it.
        You have an entire clan whose culture was, for centuries, celebrated diablerie. A clan of assassins, quite typically, who target Vampires. If you take away the Tremere Curse, the humanity of the average Assamite will fall as they begin to Diablerise more frequently. I'm not saying it's a common thing, but it is something a person who was devoted to subverting humanity (a Baali specialty) would want to do.

        And I'm aware that he might be powerless to break the curse because it's so old or because it's magic he doesn't understand. All we know is that he hasn't broken the curse, and that leaves us with a few ideas on why. He can't, he won't. Both are valid.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
          Scarred and burnt. Lacerations weeping blood. Exposed bone and sinew. I read all that. None of that screams Baali. You know what screams Assamite? The obsidian black skin, which you said ur-Shulgi didn't have. The scars and burns are even explained by the first line in the section, attributable to the ravages of the beast and the enemies it's fought.

          By the way...if you point out that I need to read line 1 and line 3 after I quote and highlight line 2 to you, I'm LITERALLY reading between lines 1 and 3. Just going to point that out.
          What seems Baali is the bit about him being an young god and being born of fire and violence
          Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 03-19-2017, 07:02 PM.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
            if I were a secret Baali hidden among the Assamites I would burn myself sharpish to cover up the whole "no curse of Darkening" thing.
            If you were a secret Baali hidden among the Assamites with Obfuscate 9, you mean?


            I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

            The Malkavian Madness Network

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            • #96
              Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

              If you were a secret Baali hidden among the Assamites with Obfuscate 9, you mean?
              There are Viziers with Auspex 9, so that's not 100% safe. Furthermore, Obfuscate can be trumped by potent blood magic rituals, such as the kind put in place to protect Alamut. And you get those who Obfuscate simply doesn't work on. I mean it's not like you'll ever find an Assamite or Ashirra with True Faith 4, will you?

              It is obvious that Ur-Shulgi is AT THE VERY LEAST associated with the Baali in some way. I'd argue that his white-ass childe, his infernalism, the burns, his child-like form and his eyes being gouged/burnt, and him fitting into the Baali/Assamite conflict in terms of timeline and lore, him rejecting religion... I mean it's hardly even a head-canon or a fan-theory, it's literally right there.
              Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-19-2017, 07:09 PM.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by BenjCano View Post
                You know what screams Assamite? The obsidian black skin, which you said ur-Shulgi didn't have.
                No, what I said was it was not like other Assamites, (though looking back I could have been more clear with that sentence). As far as we know, ur-Shulgi came that way, and at least one confirmed childer, and their childer does NOT grow darker with age.

                So, just be clear, I'm not saying that he is 100% a Baali. Only suggesting that there might be some hints of it going back for a while, and depending on how you look at a lot of other things, pieces start to fit into places.
                Last edited by Beckett; 03-19-2017, 07:23 PM.


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                • #98
                  You guys know we have the page that didn't make it into CB:A right? http://www.assamites.com/urshulgi.htm The JHD seem to be taking that as canonical https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...IRyoe_6LTI/pub Ur-shulgi isn't Baali but he is still something monsterous, He's Baali adjacent. Do we know of any other fourth Gen Sorcerers?

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                    Besides, it's the segment on "appearance"
                    Not just. From Clan Novel: Assamite:





                    And before you go into "Well obviously ur-Shulgi was using Obfuscate to hide its appearance in front of Elijah..."

                    No. He wasn't. He killed Elijah at the end of the prologue and there was no one else present in the chamber except the narrator. Either ur-Shulgi is REALLY committed to the bit of pretending to be an Assamite while alone in a cave in Petra, or he really actually is an Assamite with black skin, just like his character sheet and description and mention in the Gehenna book actually say he is.

                    The only thing you got that's funky about his appearance is that it's horribly scarred, burned, with flayed skin, exposed bone, and ripped out eyes. OK, granted, that's a LOT funky with its appearance, but the point remains that ur-Shulgi was introduced as an Assamite with an appearance consistent with an old Assamite, plus some extra body horror.


                    I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                    The Malkavian Madness Network

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                    • Originally posted by Lian View Post
                      Do we know of any other fourth Gen Sorcerers?
                      Etrius, Tremere, Goratrix, Meerlinda, Velya, Menele, Mahatma, Japtheth, Mictlantechuhlti, Baba Yaga, the Red Death, Kemintiri, Lameth, Helena, Boukephos, Montano, Elaine de Calinot, Lazarus, Xavier de Cincao, Yorak (pretty sure), Dracon (pretty sure), Nefertiti, and Seterpenre. Those are all the one I know about for certain.


                      I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                      The Malkavian Madness Network

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                      • BenjCano My argument isn't that his skin isn't black, it's that it hasn't been turned black by the Curse of Darkening. It's been turned black by something else, most likely the burns that he's never bothered to properly heal. I mean short of them being extra-special burns he can never heal, he's choosing to remain looking the way he is.

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                        • I think the big evidence that Ur Shulgi is not an assamite comes from his childer being ivory as opposed to obsidian black. (And also the founder of the Assamite Sorcerer caste).

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                          • Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

                            Etrius, Tremere, Goratrix, Meerlinda, Velya, Menele, Mahatma, Japtheth, Mictlantechuhlti, Baba Yaga, the Red Death, Kemintiri, Lameth, Helena, Boukephos, Montano, Elaine de Calinot, Lazarus, Xavier de Cincao, Yorak (pretty sure), Dracon (pretty sure), Nefertiti, and Seterpenre. Those are all the one I know about for certain.
                            Tremere and Goratrix were Hermetic True Mages, correct?

                            Oh, and you're missing Every Named 4th Generation Premascine Giovanni.

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                            • Originally posted by Shushu View Post
                              I think the big evidence that Ur Shulgi is not an assamite comes from his childer being ivory as opposed to obsidian black. (And also the founder of the Assamite Sorcerer caste).
                              Al-Ashrad is the only non-dark Assamite. I'd put that down to special snowflake syndrome myself. Or, if you must explain it through in-game terms, he was a mage and demon-binder. *handwavyhandwavy* Sorcerous blood something something something...ages backwards...Merlin syndrome.....part-jinn....somethingsomething.


                              I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                              The Malkavian Madness Network

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                              • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                                Oh, and you're missing Every Named 4th Generation Premascine Giovanni.
                                I named every one I knew.


                                I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                                The Malkavian Madness Network

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