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  • 4th gen assamite sorcerers. I think a larger argument might be If all Sorcerers descend from ur Shulgi how are they not Baali?

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    • Yeah, isn't something like 2/3 of the bloodline supposed to be descended from Ur-Shugli? I think people would notice if none of them darkened with age.

      The pedant in me must point out that Velya is 5th generation, and the Dracon's opposition to Koldunic Sorcery may make him one of the few 4th gen methuselahs who doesn't practice blood magic.

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      • Originally posted by Lian View Post
        4th gen assamite sorcerers. I think a larger argument might be If all Sorcerers descend from ur Shulgi how are they not Baali?
        The only childe of Ur on the wiki is the Amr, and his only childe doesn't seem to be that dark in his portrait. Maybe Ur has other unnamed childer, who knows?

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        • Here's a question. I've seen his name written as Ur-Shulgi and ur-Shulgi. I assume because he's from the ancient land of Ur, he should be Ur-Shulgi, as opposed to al-Ashrad (or other "son of" prefixes). What do you guys think is correct?

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          • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

            The only childe of Ur on the wiki is the Amr, and his only childe doesn't seem to be that dark in his portrait. Maybe Ur has other unnamed childer, who knows?
            This is a portrait of Ur-Shulgi

            Does this look like a child with obsidian-black skin? It certainly doesn't to me. So I wouldn't put much stock into character portraits.

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            • Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
              The pedant in me must point out that Velya is 5th generation, and the Dracon's opposition to Koldunic Sorcery may make him one of the few 4th gen methuselahs who doesn't practice blood magic.
              You're right about Velya. I had a brain fart and was thinking of Triglev. Is Dracon anti Koldunism, though?


              I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

              The Malkavian Madness Network

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              • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                The only childe of Ur on the wiki is the Amr, and his only childe doesn't seem to be that dark in his portrait. Maybe Ur has other unnamed childer, who knows?
                I'm not sure if the one on the wiki is the canon book picture, but the one there for Amaravati looks pretty dark to me. I don't want this to be an awkward 'how dark is natural' thing, but yeah. Ur-Shulgi's description that was given specifically said 'dark with age'. I think people can have theories as to possible Baali association. But I'd much prefer taking meta-information listing him as Assamite over otherwise. The evidence for him being Baali is hardly iron-clad either.

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                • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                  My argument isn't that his skin isn't black...


                  Except that you said:

                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                  His skin isn't black like other Assamites...


                  And it totally is. ur-Shulgi’s skin is described as obsidian in Children of the Night, and coal black in the Assamite novel. Coal was the same adjective used to describe Tariq in Children. Both passages that describe ur’s appearance mentioned his black skin…and the one from the novel doesn’t really go into him being burned at all. You’re reaching trying to argue that he’s a Baali in blackface.

                  I'm so sorry about that one. I couldn't resist.


                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                  There are Viziers with Auspex 9...


                  Name one.

                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                  Furthermore, Obfuscate can be trumped by potent blood magic rituals…


                  Name one. Specifically, name one that ur-Shulgi (first of the Assamite sorcerers, don't forget) can’t counter.


                  I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                  The Malkavian Madness Network

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                  • BenjCano Auspex is in-clan for the Viziers, so any 4th Generation Vizier. It would be ridiculous if there weren't a single Vizier with Auspex 9, and in that case it's practically 50/50 whether Obfuscate 9 will work. Good work tactically ignoring the True Faith thing. I mean it's not like ANY Ashirra would ever have True Faith 4. It's not like we're adjacent to a region where there is a True Faith field which hurts Kindred who aren't faithful to The One, which would lead to a disproportionately high rate of True Faith. It's not like we're looking at a clan which is tightly bound with a religion that many of its members ACTUALLY believe in as opposed to simply using the religion for their own purposes.

                    There are canonical blood magic rituals for detecting intrusion, deceit and use of supernatural powers all over the place in levels 1-5 (if you want specific examples we have the ritual which forces everyone in a room to be honest, the ritual which chimes a bell when unseen spiritual beings draw close), and we're talking about Alamut, which is arguably home to the greatest concentration of level 6+ blood mages ever. Now it's simple enough for (arguably) the most powerful blood mage ever to counter that sort of thing, but that's needless effort isn't it? It's much easier to make your actual body so burnt and disfigured that figuring out what your natural skin colour would be is almost impossible.

                    "dark like other Assamites"; you realise that that sentence has two perfectly valid interpretations? Obviously Ur-Shulgi's skin isn't pale, but is it dark like other Assamites when he's covered in a lattice of weeping scars and burnt tissue? No, it's a different kind of dark since he's got burns all over his face and his skin is cracked and broken.

                    It's really childish to reduce my perfectly valid interpretation to "Ur is in blackface". He's a Baali surrounded by individuals who are capable of breaking Obfuscate (True Faith, Vizier Auspex, Blood Magic in extreme cases) and so obfuscating (the word, not the discipline) his true complexion with horrific burns is a smart and likely move.
                    Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-20-2017, 11:15 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                      Auspex is in-clan for the Viziers, so any 4th Generation Vizier.
                      Again, name one.

                      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                      Good work tactically ignoring the True Faith thing
                      Ummm......I can't ignore something that hasn't been part of the conversation until now.

                      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                      It's much easier to make your actual body so burnt and disfigured...
                      You and I define easy very differently.

                      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                      Obviously Ur-Shulgi's skin isn't pale, but is it dark like other Assamites when he's covered in a lattice of weeping scars and burnt tissue?
                      I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about skin color. I mean, using your logic, Izhim-ur-Baal doesn't have skin that's dark like other Assamites because he has all these tattoos in his skin. The burning, the scarification, and the eyes gouged out ur-Shilgi has going for it are independent of the actual skin tone under discussion. Independently of whether or not it's burned, the novel describes him as having black skin. It doesn't mention the burns at all.

                      The argument under discussion is this. You're saying that ur-Shulgi's skin is black BECAUSE it's burned. I'm saying that ur-Shulgi's skin is black AND burned. You want to use that interpretation to say that ur-Shulgi is a Baali, when his stat block lists his clan as Assamite and his sire as Haqim. If he was Baali, shouldn't his sire be Ashur?
                      Last edited by BenjCano; 03-20-2017, 11:27 AM.


                      I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                      The Malkavian Madness Network

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                      • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                        And you get those who Obfuscate simply doesn't work on. I mean it's not like you'll ever find an Assamite or Ashirra with True Faith 4, will you?
                        BenjCano I brought it up earlier, you left it out while quoting. Those with TF of 4 or higher (I believe) are 100% immune to Obfuscate, FYI. So are some Dhampir, but that's not a huge issue since they didn't really start existing until the 1990s.

                        Anyways, it's reached the point where I can't suspend disbelief RE you discussing this in good faith. You're being very choosey about what you respond to in order to construct a specific narrative, and it gets very boring eventually being on the other side of it.
                        Last edited by 11twiggins; 03-20-2017, 11:36 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                          BenjCano I brought it up earlier, you left it out while quoting. Those with TF of 4 or higher (I believe) are 100% immune to Obfuscate, FYI. So are some Dhampir, but that's not a huge issue since they didn't really start existing until the 1990s.
                          OK...so name me an Assamite with True Faith 4 or greater who will pierce an Obfuscate veil but who won't just wig out at the presence of a Baali Methuselah.


                          I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                          The Malkavian Madness Network

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                          • I don't think this is getting anyone anywhere. Let's move on.


                            Matthew Dawkins
                            Freelance Writer and Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

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                            • Wait, this is out now? I thought it was still in the backer errata phase.

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                              • Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post
                                Wait, this is out now? I thought it was still in the backer errata phase.
                                It is still in the backer errata phase.


                                Matthew Dawkins
                                Freelance Writer and Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

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