Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[Lore of Bloodlines] Questions about Gargoyles...

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [Lore of Bloodlines] Questions about Gargoyles...

    According to Lore of the Bloodlines, the three sub-bloodlines of Gargoyle are Scout, Sentinel, and Warrior. None of them have have they all have flight, none of them have Visceratika, and they have different clan weaknesses from "regular" Gargoyles (except that they're all still susceptible to mind control in the same way as regular Gargoyles).

    Questions:
    1. If we are swapping the weakness in V20 for the weakness listed for any particular flavor of Gargoyle--but are keeping the mind control--does that mean that these Gargoyles are presentable? Because the weakness in V20 is that (a) they're hideous/inhuman, and (b) mind-control works better on them than on other vampires.

    2. What's the deal with Sentinel Gargoyles having the same disciplines as regular Gargoyles (minus Visceratika)? Is trading the clan weakness of being a grotesque for being co-dependent and obsequious really worth dropping an in-clan discipline specifically designed to make Gargoyles into better guards?



  • #2
    IMHO:

    This part of the Gargoyle chapter is a bit weird. I can´t imagine Gargoyles not having Appearance 0. I mean, they can look cool, but that´s not something exclusive to the Gargoyles Variations.
    I think said variations can represent an advantage to the Tremere, as they get servants with a wider range of talents, but the Gargoyles themselves are (individually) weaker than the ones built with the standard V20 rules- specially in the case of the Sentinels.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DoktorNiemand View Post
      IMHO:

      This part of the Gargoyle chapter is a bit weird. I can´t imagine Gargoyles not having Appearance 0. I mean, they can look cool, but that´s not something exclusive to the Gargoyles Variations.
      I think said variations can represent an advantage to the Tremere, as they get servants with a wider range of talents, but the Gargoyles themselves are (individually) weaker than the ones built with the standard V20 rules- specially in the case of the Sentinels.
      I can easily imagine appearance 5 creatures who are walking breaches of the Masquerade. Its a shame its not really an option outside Tzim and fleshcrafting

      Comment


      • #4
        The appearance thing IS worth comment, but know that 'inhuman' and 'ugly' are not the seam thing. Back in the nights of the Omen War between the Tremere and the Tzimisce, there were all kinds of Gargoyles and other servants created in the labs of Ceoris, but even Virstania's most lovely creations were still inhuman in appearance, no matter how perfect their horns and wings and freakish proportions were. As mentioned above, Appearance 0 need not mean ugliness so much as 'not right' in a viewer's eyes. Think along the lines of the uncanny valley (e.g. 'human shaped' robots, what it is that makes a CGI person look wrong). Beauty can be as terrible as ugliness.

        As for losing a Discipline 'specifically designed to make Gargoyles into better guards' line? It all comes from the notion that these 'breeds' are the same as the Embraced Gargoyles, which is incorrect. However, the text of Lore of the Bloodlines doesn't make it at all clear. In those nights where ever Gargoyle was spawned from an application of the ritual At Our Command It Breathes (though it may not have been called that in the mind of Virstania herself), and NONE of them had Visceratika as a Discipline because such simply did not exist. The Tremere had a whole class of rituals that they cast on their servants to give powers of all sort, and somewhere along the line these were internalised by the Gargoyles into said Discipline. So no, they don't LOSE Visceratika so much as they don't have access to it as other Gargoyles do... A fine point perhaps, but one that I would have liked to see discussed a little better in the book.

        Look, if you really want to integrate such Gargoyle possibilities into your game, I suggest springing for the PDF of House of Tremere. That book has all the information you'll crave for what Virstania's children were and could still be. That fact that the Montmartre Pact outlawed the creation of Gargoyles seems, in the current version of the milieu at least, more honoured in the breach, but my take would be that few if any modern Warlocks have the expertise to create even a 'standard' Gargoyle with the ritual, much less specialise to create these versions.

        ...The above notwithstanding, all of this 'breeds of Gargoyles' bit feels very at odds with what I ever thought Gargoyles ought to be in Vampire: The Masquerade, but it also felt a lot like some 'Mary Sue' attempt to make them more like the characters in the Disney cartoon show about gargoyles. I can hear a fangirl squeal: 'Oooh, we can make Goliath and Brooklyn as vampires!' Of course, you mileage may vary.


        B.I.G. Bird spreads the word: Anybody with a heart votes love

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Phaolan View Post
          The appearance thing IS worth comment, but know that 'inhuman' and 'ugly' are not the seam thing. Back in the nights of the Omen War between the Tremere and the Tzimisce, there were all kinds of Gargoyles and other servants created in the labs of Ceoris, but even Virstania's most lovely creations were still inhuman in appearance, no matter how perfect their horns and wings and freakish proportions were. As mentioned above, Appearance 0 need not mean ugliness so much as 'not right' in a viewer's eyes. Think along the lines of the uncanny valley (e.g. 'human shaped' robots, what it is that makes a CGI person look wrong). Beauty can be as terrible as ugliness.
          no, appearance zero means ugliness. It can "look cool" but someone with it cannot engage in social interactions outside intimidation.


          ..The above notwithstanding, all of this 'breeds of Gargoyles' bit feels very at odds with what I ever thought Gargoyles ought to be in Vampire: The Masquerade, but it also felt a lot like some 'Mary Sue' attempt to make them more like the characters in the Disney cartoon show about gargoyles. I can hear a fangirl squeal: 'Oooh, we can make Goliath and Brooklyn as vampires!' Of course, you mileage may vary.
          Why the hell shouldn't you be able to play Goliath in Vampire? I can play characters based on countless media concepts, and the game is based on countless pop cultural ideas for inspiration i mean just look at any book where it gives suggested reading/viewing. This sort of gatekeeping bullshit is what hurts our hobby.
          Last edited by Lian; 03-19-2017, 04:53 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lian View Post
            no...
            Hey, it's YOUR world. You play it like you want.

            I can give you examples of characters with 'zero Appearance' in 'canon' that are anything but ugly, but I don't suppose you'd like to see that. Alternatively, I never said that playing a Disney version of a character was wrong, and if that's how you saw it, I'm sorry, mate. It's not MY cup o' tea, but more power to you if that's where YOUR game leads you.

            ...Not to feed a troll, but I think it's worth pointing out that saying a flat-out 'no' and calling someone else's ideas 'bulls**t' maybe hurts our hobby more than what I said, but what do I know? In your eyes, apparently I know very little.

            Cheers, and I'm done here.
            Last edited by Phaolan; 03-20-2017, 07:16 PM.


            B.I.G. Bird spreads the word: Anybody with a heart votes love

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Phaolan View Post
              Hey, it's YOUR world. You play it like you want.

              I can give you examples of characters with 'zero Appearance' in 'canon' that are anything but ugly, but I don't suppose you'd like to see that. Alternatively, I never said that playing a Disney version of a character was wrong, and if that's how you saw it, I'm sorry, mate. It's not MY cup o' tea, but more power to you if that's where YOUR game leads you.

              ...Not to feed a troll, but I think it's worth pointing out that saying a flat-out 'no' and calling someone else's ideas 'bulls**t' maybe hurts our hobby more than what I said, but what do I know? In your eyes, apparently I know very little.

              Cheers, and I'm done here.
              Can you give an example, because I don't know any.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                Why the hell shouldn't you be able to play Goliath in Vampire? I can play characters based on countless media concepts, and the game is based on countless pop cultural ideas for inspiration i mean just look at any book where it gives suggested reading/viewing. This sort of gatekeeping bullshit is what hurts our hobby.
                Agreed 100%

                And I don't think Lian was trolling, Phaolan. I think Lian was giving an honest take on why he disagreed with you.


                PENTEX SUCKS.

                I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

                Comment


                • #9
                  TBH I would probably have the same reaction to someone wanting to play a Goliath type gargoyle as I would if somebody pitched a street shark concept rokea to me.

                  A slight chuckle and a polite request to modify the concept.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post
                    Why the hell shouldn't you be able to play Goliath in Vampire? I can play characters based on countless media concepts, and the game is based on countless pop cultural ideas for inspiration i mean just look at any book where it gives suggested reading/viewing. This sort of gatekeeping bullshit is what hurts our hobby.
                    Because not all characters are appropriate for all games.Because increasing the kitchen sink property of WoD doesn't necessarily make the game better.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                      Because not all characters are appropriate for all games.Because increasing the kitchen sink property of WoD doesn't necessarily make the game better.
                      A character concept not being appropriate for all games doesn't mean it should be banned. Some games might have a vampire Goliath as entirely appropriate. A player or Storyteller shouldn't be punished for wanting to have that game. You're free to disallow any concept you disagree with, but others aren't obligated to share that view of what counts as "acceptable World of Darkness play".

                      The Storyteller system, more than any other game, thrives on infinite possibility, and the right of those who play the game to run it as they please. The Golden Rule, and all that. All published material outside the core books (that tell you the rules needed to run a game at all) exist to provide as many options for telling stories as possible. The Kitchen Sink nature of the World of Darkness is a Feature, not a Bug.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Now I just want to play a Rokea based on that impossibly friendly shark prince from Breath of the Wild.

                        "You want to become Baron, cold one? I believe in you! Don't give up, okay?!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                          A character concept not being appropriate for all games doesn't mean it should be banned. Some games might have a vampire Goliath as entirely appropriate. A player or Storyteller shouldn't be punished for wanting to have that game. You're free to disallow any concept you disagree with, but others aren't obligated to share that view of what counts as "acceptable World of Darkness play".

                          The Storyteller system, more than any other game, thrives on infinite possibility, and the right of those who play the game to run it as they please. The Golden Rule, and all that. All published material outside the core books (that tell you the rules needed to run a game at all) exist to provide as many options for telling stories as possible. The Kitchen Sink nature of the World of Darkness is a Feature, not a Bug.
                          "More than any other game", with the exception of D&D, FATE, GURPS and every other system that has ever existed since all of them have Rule 0 too.
                          Now, that exceptionallist bullshit aside, I agree, kitchen sink is not a bug. It's a feature I'm personally not a fan of, but it's a feature. And I also agree that others aren't obligated to share the view of what is good for WoD. Which also means that "Gargoyles aren't appropriate to WoD" is just as valid a statement as "Gargoyles are appropriate to WoD". It's a free discussion, not "gatekeeping bullshit".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Phaolan View Post
                            Hey, it's YOUR world. You play it like you want.

                            I can give you examples of characters with 'zero Appearance' in 'canon' that are anything but ugly, but I don't suppose you'd like to see that.
                            .
                            Actually I would entirely like to see that, if anyoen would be willing to back this up because I've always seen appearance Alien characters that are meant to be mind numbingly pretty have appearance levels. All Fera except Kitsune for example have appearance zero in their hybrid form, Kitsune who can still interact with people have their appearance unchanged as a stat. or Sascha Vykos who rocks appearance 7 and is pretty damned inhuman.


                            Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                            Because not all characters are appropriate for all games.Because increasing the kitchen sink property of WoD doesn't necessarily make the game better.
                            What makes Goliath or any of the Gargoyles a particularly bad fit? Or Explain why a Gargoyle who has the Bloodline flaw "Takes Double health penalties from damage" is complete kitchen sinking but "Takes double damage from sunlight" is meaningful? Or Sentinels having a particularly less "Vampire" mechanic than "Really obsssessed with books" or holy shit frenzy and with the wrong St be basically out for the night vs "I see pretty things!"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                              "More than any other game", with the exception of D&D, FATE, GURPS and every other system that has ever existed since all of them have Rule 0 too.
                              Now, that exceptionallist bullshit aside, I agree, kitchen sink is not a bug. It's a feature I'm personally not a fan of, but it's a feature. And I also agree that others aren't obligated to share the view of what is good for WoD. Which also means that "Gargoyles aren't appropriate to WoD" is just as valid a statement as "Gargoyles are appropriate to WoD". It's a free discussion, not "gatekeeping bullshit".


                              That's not what the op said. The op is saying the Variants are some how a bad concept but the intial idea of Gargoyles as Vampires is Good. I can more readily see an argument for "I don't think gargoyles should exist because they really make the game far more fantastic than the down to Earth tone I want to go for with Vampire" It wouldn't be the only thing I'd take out for a more down to earth and gritty vampire but I can see that argument.

                              That Someone can play a Gargoyle who's CRAZY codependent and thus we can see how horrible that is as they spiral down humanity seems much more interesting to me than base gargoyle flaw.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X