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  • How easy was to generate new bloodlines?

    So how easy was it generating different bloodlines for the Antes? For instance Set embraced all over if he was the one that embraced the Tlacique, rather then his Child Tezcatlipoca? Do you think the Antes had to develop specific powers to make bloodlines or it was more effected by their moods/accidents, or they could just naturally will it?

    What do you think about Disciplines to make Bloodlines? We know Rituals can be designed to create offshoots like Gargoyles and Bloodbrothers.

    The new book says the Daughters of Caucaphony were an experiment and the result of training and controlled embraces. So what do you think about Mage magic being used to alter blood to create a new bloodline? The Black Hand, and perhaps Setites could have access to this, and the Tremere certainly have a method for it?

    Thoughts?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    I think it's really hard to create a new bloodline and most of the time it happend by chance rather than careful planning. Also natural evolution and being cut off from the main body of the clan plays a big role.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      So how easy was it generating different bloodlines for the Antes? For instance Set embraced all over if he was the one that embraced the Tlacique, rather then his Child Tezcatlipoca? Do you think the Antes had to develop specific powers to make bloodlines or it was more effected by their moods/accidents, or they could just naturally will it?
      Nothing's special about Antes. Its the Embracee that makes a bloodline. That there are even clans shows this. Some mix of luck and personality same thing for catiff.



      What do you think about Disciplines to make Bloodlines? We know Rituals can be designed to create offshoots like Gargoyles and Bloodbrothers.
      A ritual is a very limited effect vs a whole discipline or power. I mean do you have a whole bloodline/clan that 1/3 of their discipline set is "Make new bloodlines" or would it be a particular power? and what Discipline do you think SHOULD make Bloodlines? And why would someone go "man I want to be able to embrace a bunch of different bloodlines because man I'm bored" It seems like an extremely oddly specialized power.



      The new book says the Daughters of Caucaphony were an experiment and the result of training and controlled embraces. So what do you think about Mage magic being used to alter blood to create a new bloodline? The Black Hand, and perhaps Setites could have access to this, and the Tremere certainly have a method for it?
      Take the DOC story with a Grain of Salt because apparently they were created as a weapon against the Camarilla before it existed. Mage magick absolutely as might changeling arts, Rites, Arcanoi, trying to embrace a corpse etc. Anything that's not the simple Embrace of a human being is a reasonable source fo a new bloodline. On the other hand the method for making said bloodline is unique to that bloodline, you can't say use the DOC method to make Tremere(who are litteral a bloodline made by Magic). The Setites intentionally made their warriors but they don't seem to be capable of making new lines. The True Hand may have made the DOC(or the DOC who told that story was full of shit) but their DOC techniques aren't going to be applicable to anything else.

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      • #4
        I don't mean a whole discipline made for making bloodlines... that would be pretty weird, I don't think anyone suggests that. I mean a specific Power or combo power.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #5
          The limited number of existent Bloodlines (and even variations of the blood) suggest that the blood of the Kindred is highly resistant to permanent mutation. There are only seventeen known Bloodlines and four of them were created by the destruction of a Antediluvian (Cappadocians, Harbingers of Skulls, Salubri, and True Brujah). Of the variations of the blood, there are only twenty-seven known variations of the blood, and a good number of them are philosophical variations rather than mutations of the blood.

          If we assume that Kindred have an average 'life' expectancy of 10 years, there have probably been around 200,000 Kindred Embraced within the last century within the West (Australia, Europe, North America, and South America). Even with that many Kindred Embraced, there have been only one new Bloodline (the Blood Brothers) and only one new variation of the blood (the Dominate Malkavians). That suggests that the creation of a new Bloodline or a variation of the blood requires either a change in the basic nature of a Clan (cause by the death or transformation of an Antediluvian), an extremely rare mutation of the transmission of elder blood, or centuries of magical experimentation. Of course, the short 'life' expectancy of Kindred could mean that most of the new Bloodlines or variations of the blood are lost before they can create a sustainable lineage.

          However, if you want to represent a spontaneous development of a new Bloodline or a new variation of the blood, I would suggest rolling a dice pool equal to (15-Generation of the newly Embraced character), with a difficulty of 6, whenever a character is newly Embraced by one of the Kindred (with '10's' providing two successes and '1's' subtracting one success). On a botch, the Embrace went wrong, and the character becomes a Caitiff who suffers from the Infertile Vitae Flaw without compensation. On a failure, the character fails to bond with the Clan and becomes one of the Caitiff. On a success, the character bonds with the Clan and becomes a standard member of a Clan. If the character rolls five successes, the character bonds with the Clans and gains the Additional Discipline Merit without cost. If the character rolls ten successes, the character spontaneously develops a variation of the blood and may exchange any of their Clan Disciplines for other existent Disciplines if they wish, and anyone that the character Embraces will benefit from the same variation of the blood. If the character rolls fifteen successes, the character spontaneously mutates into a new Bloodline with their own array of Disciplines, and may develop a proprietary Discipline and/or a new Weakness, and anyone that the character Embraces will belong to the same Bloodline. Fifteenth generation Kindred may not roll for mutation when they are Embraced because any variation in their blood is meaningless.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
            The limited number of existent Bloodlines (and even variations of the blood) suggest that the blood of the Kindred is highly resistant to permanent mutation. There are only seventeen known Bloodlines and four of them were created by the destruction of a Antediluvian (Cappadocians, Harbingers of Skulls, Salubri, and True Brujah). Of the variations of the blood, there are only twenty-seven known variations of the blood, and a good number of them are philosophical variations rather than mutations of the blood.

            Assamite(Warrior, Sorcerer v1, Sorcerer v2, Vizier, Byzanitine Vizier, Bedoin warrior, Shango) Possibly recorded variants of clan Assamite 7, 8 if we count that all the warriors were cursed even potentially new embraces for centuries.
            Brujah (Standard, "True", Osbeo) 3 variants
            Capadocian (Standard, Lamia, Giovanni) 3
            Gangrel(Standard/Country, City, Greek, Mariner, Ahriman, Lihanan, Noiad, Anda, Akunase, Bonsam) 10
            Lasombra(Standard, AA, Xi Dundu, Ramaga) 4
            Malkavian(Standard, Dominate Malk) 2
            Nosferatu-if we ignore the idea of Broods with each matching mutations which is brought up in CB Nos revised we get Nos standard, Niktuku, Gurrhi 3
            Ravnos (Standard, Phura Dae/Brahmin,kinyonyi) 3
            Salubri(Healer, Warrior, Thief, Scholar, Possibly Baali) 5
            Settites(Priests, Warriors, Children of Damballah/SOL, Warriors of Glycon, Witches of Echidna, possiblly tlacique) 6
            Tremere(Standard, Telyvanic, ignoring that Standard TAT have a separate flaw 2 variants for one of the youngest and most controlling of clans.
            Toreador(standard, possibly Ishtarri, I'm going to give Antritribu a full blood variance here as they have a separate clan flaw and have no love of beauty much like the Ishtarri) 3
            Tzim(Standard, Old Clan, Nagalopers) 3
            Ventrue(Standard, Danava) 2

            Created:Gargoyles, Nagaraja. Blood Brothers, 3
            Unknown:Samedi(possibily capaodcians), DOC(possibily Created), Impundulu(possibly Capadocians), Children of Osiris 4

            Kiasyd/Magar are intheirown little category of confusing

            these are extant known variations of the blood that have existed in the last thousand years including ones that have explicity changed that is 70 posibile variations of the blood that we know of. the JHD will expand upon the "Drowned Legacies" of the Americas potentially adding more to our history of the blood.


            If we assume that Kindred have an average 'life' expectancy of 10 years, there have probably been around 200,000 Kindred Embraced within the last century within the West (Australia, Europe, North America, and South America). Even with that many Kindred Embraced, there have been only one new Bloodline (the Blood Brothers) and only one new variation of the blood (the Dominate Malkavians). That suggests that the creation of a new Bloodline or a variation of the blood requires either a change in the basic nature of a Clan (cause by the death or transformation of an Antediluvian), an extremely rare mutation of the transmission of elder blood, or centuries of magical experimentation. Of course, the short 'life' expectancy of Kindred could mean that most of the new Bloodlines or variations of the blood are lost before they can create a sustainable lineage.
            dominate malks are as old as the Camarilla. Honestly the "slowing" of Development of new bloodlines makes sense with the fear of catiff. Where as way back in ancient times when the embrace went sideways since the vampire might be able to go bugger off to another part of the world build up theirown brood and come back as into broader setup as a "Bloodline" with the world becomng more interconnected the larger bloodlines can call themselves clans and force unity on deviations.

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            • #7
              There's also an issue of definition.

              There may be many vampires who on their embrace become "mechanically" a bloodline, like a Giovanni who is surprisingly good at Fortitude, but not so hot at Necromancy; or a Malkavian who could have only had Depression as their derangement. Their childer might be bound by theses traits as well, but would anyone realize it? How many childer would they have to sire before anyone noticed a pattern?

              Among the Ventrue there are lineages whose only variance is a shared choice of prey, a tendency toward certain personality traits, or a different sect allegiance. Are these counted as full bloodlines?

              Meanwhile, among the Assamites, the castes have altogether different weaknesses, often with several variations within a caste. Not only do they have different disciplines, but the one discipline they all share, Quietus, works differently for different castes. It could even be argued there are three distinct, but similar, disciplines named Quietus. Somehow, though, no one questions whether they are still the same clan. Is a Vizier with a different curse a different caste? How different would a Childe of Haqim have to be before they were no longer simply an Assamite? Is there even such a thing as "simply an Assamite"?

              For purposes of the game setting, remember that the characters don't have access to all the books and the White Wolf wiki. If there is a red-headed, female soldier who was embraced as a Toreador, and she has gone on to embrace a half dozen red-headed, female soldiers, who can say with any certainty that they aren't a new bloodline? I suppose the Tremere can run various tests, but that's all predicated on sire-childe shared traits. "Yep, her ancestry is Toreador. Yep, those women are her childer," is about what you'd get.

              So, you have a new bloodline if you say you do and/or if most other vampires say you do.

              And if an Antedeluvian says it's a new bloodline, is your character gonna be the one to correct him?

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              • #8
                The longer ago a Bloodline formed, the more legitimate it seems. If Bob has Presence, Animalism and Serpentis, and his own odd Supernatural Curse, he's a weirdo. If he has a group of childer he's an upstart with a cult. If he has several generations of descendants he's the leader of a group of Setite rejects who dare to call themselves a "bloodline". If Bob's name is Belgrave and he did all of this 400 years ago, "Bloodline" starts to feel more and more appropriate. ESPECIALLY if it's exotic. No English Vampire is interested in a bloodline that originated in Norfolk.

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                • #9
                  Are Harbingers of Skulls standard Cappadocians who've just gotten spooky through centuries in the Underworld, or are they their own separate bloodline?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                    Are Harbingers of Skulls standard Cappadocians who've just gotten spooky through centuries in the Underworld, or are they their own separate bloodline?
                    Harbingers of Skulls are effectively identical to the Cappadocians; the only real change is that they've grown more and more skeletal and decrepit, but that's a mixture of aging and Underworld Goodness. I'd say calling them a Bloodline is a bit much, but they do have a unique Path and their own specific culture and goals, so maybe worth distinguishing from a random Cappadocian survivor.

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                    • #11
                      Sounds like a bloodline to me.


                      Same with Daitya which was missed in the upper list.

                      And there are Bloodlines not mentioned yet, these are only the known ones, as the Darkage 20 book shows there are more bloodlines out there.

                      And the Arabian Bloodlines are mostly political but they too seem like bloodlines as they call themselves something different.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        The methodology my list was if a lineage shares both flaw and inclans they are the same. Harbingers' flaw is CLOSE enough to Capadocians I didn't consider them separate. Toreador Antis on the other hand have a new clan flaw vs their Camarilla kin. Daitya have the same clan flaw and discipline spread as "Standard" settites. Children of Damballah and Potentially SOL have a different clan flaw as of Lore of the Clans.


                        So if you want a new bloodline in game you have alot of options the only issue is the difference between "dirty Catiff" and "Bloodline found" is a thin and blurry line, there may potentially be many more "bloodlines" in the sabbat that were consumed by Pander Movement.

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                        • #13
                          Creating a bloodline is likely a lot simpler then most vampires realize.

                          - Most Elders are capable of developing their own niche abilities once they complete the 'standard' Disciplines
                          - New 'bloodlines' are able to develop in a mere 2-3 generations of presumable cross-clan training and embraces, such as Ur-Shulgi and the Assamite Sorcerers that devolve from him, or Set's Warrior Setites, or the City Gangrel.
                          - Other bloodlines are just developed by lone individuals on an ad hoc basis, like Baron Samedi and the Samedi bloodline.
                          - Some Caitiff are able to 'incept' new Disciplines out of nothing. If an Inceptor goes on to sire a childe who retains the ability for his discipline, he has effectively created a bloodline of two.

                          In truth, the only thing likely keeping the Clans from exploding into an endless series of divergent bloodlines is the deeply entrenched social conformity of the clan system and the harsh social penalities of being outside the Clan, along with the enormous amount of effort involved in bending the Blood to one's will in an unprecedented (but possible) way. Not everyone can be an Augustus Giovanni or a Tremere.

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                          • #14
                            It's quite likely than most new bloodlines founder dies either just because Kindreds life is quite dangerous, or killed by some sect/clan either for being a threat, being mistaken for something else (caitiff, baali, salubri or whatever), or used for experiments by blood magicians.

                            They probably don't even have time to embrace.

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                            • #15
                              I agree that the majority of Bloodlines face extinction before they can Embrace. Of course, Bloodlines that manifest different Disciplines instead of proprietary Disciplines might just go unnoticed by their Clans. Different capabilities and strange weaknesses are not uncommon among the Kindred.

                              I would suggest that the progenitor of a new spontaneous Bloodline should possess two weaknesses (their Clan Weakness and their Bloodline Weakness). The progenitor would be treated as a member of an existing Clan and would receive the Additional Discipline Merit in exchange for manifesting the Bloodline Weakness. When they Embrace new Kindred, their childer would have a fifty percent chance of being a standard member of their sire's Clan (with the Clan weakness and the three Clan Disciplines) and a fifty percent chance of being a member of the new Bloodline (with the Bloodline weakness and three of their sire's Disciplines as Bloodline Disciplines).

                              A spontaneous variation of the blood is even simpler, as the progenitor would only have to purchase the Additional Discipline Merit and would not need an extra weakness. Fifty percent of the childer of the progenitor would have the standard three Clan Disciplines and fifty percent of the childer of the progenitor would have three of their sire's Disciplines as variation Disciplines. There could be hundreds of unremarkable variations of the blood that exist but, because they might only be shared by a couple dozen Kindred, they are unknown to Kindred society.

                              A new spontaneous Bloodline or Variation might not be noticed until a couple of centuries pass because the progenitor might not Embrace enough Kindred for them to notice the change in the blood. The progenitor might even be dead before anyone realizes that there is a new Bloodline or a new Variation. Of course, some spontaneous Bloodlines or Variations would require multiple changes to evolve, but it would not be impossible for a Bloodline or Variation to evolve into something unrecognizable to the parent Clan over a few centuries, especially if there are a massive number of diableries and Embraces during that time period (which would explain the evolution of the City Gangrel of the Sabbat). .
                              Last edited by Aya Tari; 03-19-2017, 01:11 PM.

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