Why are Elder Powers so... awful?

[Baaldam]

The most Trash Elder Discipline I think it's the Auspex one that, basically, let you be Sassy with a capital S in a argument with someone. I think the name is "Prediction".

Oh yeah, how could one ever forget someone writing Chicago by Night took the effort to make Critias with Auspex 6 just to give him that spetacularly useful thing as his only elder power, that is more headache for STs everywhere than anything like a favor....

(To be fair, if any character in Chicago by Night would be justified in possessing capital S sass of literal supernal levels, Critias is the one, but there are more elegant and mechanically effective ways to play with that - like Presence 6, that is a Brujah favored discipline to boot)

[blailton]

Oh yeah, how could one ever forget someone writing Chicago by Night took the effort to make Critias with Auspex 6 just to give him that spetacularly useful thing as his only elder power, that is more headache for STs everywhere than anything like a favor....

(To be fair, if any character in Chicago by Night would be justified in possessing capital S sass of literal supernal levels, Critias is the one, but there are more elegant and mechanically effective ways to play with that - like Presence 6, that is a Brujah favored discipline to boot)

I think the same, it's a headache to the ST. To the players, too, bc how exactly you RP it...?

The mechanical aspect is lame, too. You need 5 sucess to predict the target next action in the scene, otherwise you just gain 1/4 temporally dice bonus on social actions against the target. What a piece of sh** elder power.... it is level 2 auspex material in a good day.

Meanwhile, Dominate 6 let you make the target don't know they are under your mind control influence even if someone tell them (Rationalize) and Presence 6 let you stun someone for 3 turns with a single sucess on your roll.

[Baaldam]

The mechanical aspect is lame, too. You need 5 sucess to predict the target next action in the scene, otherwise you just gain 1/4 temporally dice bonus on social actions against the target. What a piece of sh** elder power.... it is level 2 auspex material in a good day.

Now that you said it, that could work nicely mostly as is for a "Preemptive Retort/Supersass" Auspex 2, Presence 2 combo.

4 dots total x 3 for 12 points, minus 1-3 for being a kind of minimalist trick would put it at 9-11xp, less than the starting dot in any discipline, for a power a number of kindred possibly learn without even noticing it as such.

[Baaldam]

Ok, this is rough and old as f##k, but thought it was worthwhile reposting due to the thread's subject: some of my "take out the trash" discipline combos.


Sweet Mystique (Dominate 2, Presence 3)
Silly preocupations with gaze, eye contact and such bits go beyond the kindred, because she knows all eyes are on her now, their own hearts bending their attention towards every word of the one who wants to use, as they are made to want to be.

(This is my answer to "group dominate" tricks like Mass Manipulation or Mob Rule, that let's be honest, are just basic Dominate pasted over Presence)


Mask the Ephemeral (Auspex 2-4, Obfuscate 3)
With awareness of the invisible world, comes an awareness of deeper layers of obfuscation and invisibility.

(This one covers "Auspex-countering effects" such as Mind Blank & Soul Mask. Auspex 2 for aura-tweaking, Auspex 4 for false thoughts, higher level Obfuscate variants might allow for not just hiding one's aura or thoughts, but the creation of false one's according to the user preference much like with a false visage)


Might try to post other "elder powers/signature disciplines as combo powers" i have in my files, if people are ok with the idea of more of this for them to adapt and tweak to their own chronicles and tastes.

[blailton]

Ok, this is rough and old as f##k, but thought it was worthwhile reposting due to the thread's subject: some of my "take out the trash" discipline combos.


Sweet Mystique (Dominate 2, Presence 3)
Silly preocupations with gaze, eye contact and such bits go beyond the kindred, because she knows all eyes are on her now, their own hearts bending their attention towards every word of the one who wants to use, as they are made to want to be.

(This is my answer to "group dominate" tricks like Mass Manipulation or Mob Rule, that let's be honest, are just basic Dominate pasted over Presence)


Mask the Ephemeral (Auspex 2-4, Obfuscate 3)
With awareness of the invisible world, comes an awareness of deeper layers of obfuscation and invisibility.

(This one covers "Auspex-countering effects" such as Mind Blank & Soul Mask. Auspex 2 for aura-tweaking, Auspex 4 for false thoughts, higher level Obfuscate variants might allow for not just hiding one's aura or thoughts, but the creation of false one's according to the user preference much like with a false visage)


Might try to post other "elder powers/signature disciplines as combo powers" i have in my files, if people are ok with the idea of more of this for them to adapt and tweak to their own chronicles and tastes.

Mask the Ephemeral is best than Mind Blank... A 6 dot discipline that is passive (i.e. boring) and can fail and reveal your thoughs anyway.

[Baaldam]

Mask the Ephemeral is best than Mind Blank... A 6 dot discipline that is passive (i.e. boring) and can fail and reveal your thoughs anyway.

One of the reasons i always discounted Mind Blank as a power its own. It exists to counter a lower level power - and is kind of crap at it too, to boot.
Much more sensible to make a discipline combo in about the same rung and let opposed rolls solve the issue or get people in trouble.

[blailton]

One of the reasons i always discounted Mind Blank as a power its own. It exists to counter a lower level power - and is kind of crap at it too, to boot.
Much more sensible to make a discipline combo in about the same rung and let opposed rolls solve the issue or get people in trouble.

yeah.

Just the fact your version let the cainite fake thoughs/memories/emotions/aura made it way more fun to use.

[Prometheas]

One thing I noticed while going through older edition books is that while elder disciplines have always been a mixed bag, the tendency of elder disciplines to be complete crap wasn't there.

Look at the Elder disciplines in Player's guides to the high/low clans for example, specifically the celerity elder powers. The elder powers for the physical disciplines are Full of crap in later editions, but in Guide to the high clans there isn't a single celerity power that wouldn't be worth taking.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

A fair chunk of it comes down to the intersection of OWoD never really having all that good of mechanics at the best of times and the Storytelling system not handling the high end scale well at all.

[Prometheas]

A fair chunk of it comes down to the intersection of OWoD never really having all that good of mechanics at the best of times and the Storytelling system not handling the high end scale well at all.

Maybe, but this seems to be something that got worse with each edition.

Looking back at the trends of the editions with revised closing off the umbra, wto20 nerfing wraiths, and v5's cutback of elder powers almost entirely, it's possible the collection of crap elder powers we got in V20 might be Intentional nerfing on the writers part to reel in the power level of campaigns.

[Herr Meister]

Look at the Elder disciplines in Player's guides to the high/low clans for example, specifically the celerity elder powers. The elder powers for the physical disciplines are Full of crap in later editions, but in Guide to the high clans there isn't a single celerity power that wouldn't be worth taking.

The second edition of Dark Ages is really great (and beautiful) and both guides to high/low clans are great. Still, even in them, we have a(n) (un) fair share of underwhelming powers (and let's not forget, it also nerfs Auspex 8), like Arm of Prometheus, for instance, one of the worst powers ever created in vampire, the fact that it is a level NINE (!!!) power is even more insulting, Repair the Undead Flesh is also very underwhelming for a level 8 power. In general, though, I agree that it is better than most vampire books in terms of powers and the celerity ones are good.

[TyrannicalRabbit]

Maybe, but this seems to be something that got worse with each edition.

Looking back at the trends of the editions with revised closing off the umbra, wto20 nerfing wraiths, and v5's cutback of elder powers almost entirely, it's possible the collection of crap elder powers we got in V20 might be Intentional nerfing on the writers part to reel in the power level of campaigns.

I mean, that is not exactly surprising. The Storyteller system being bad at the gonzo level was a well discussed topic from 2e till the end.

I don't really count 20th in those discussions as it wasn't originally meant as an edition but a fan send off with cleaned up mechanics, what the individual developers of those books had in mind with cleaned up mechanics is something to ask them directly.

V5 I have even less interest in due to Paradox's issues but I've heard nothing good about it mechanically save in areas where it fixed things where the bar was already set so low(Celerity etc) fixing it was all but a shoe in and not something I'm inclined to pat them on the back for. Even then it's not something I'd compare or consider a continuation of design philosophies with 1e, 2e or Revised as they are games from very different eras of ttrpgs design.

[SetiteFriend]

Looking back at the trends of the editions with revised closing off the umbra, wto20 nerfing wraiths, and v5's cutback of elder powers almost entirely, it's possible the collection of crap elder powers we got in V20 might be Intentional nerfing on the writers part to reel in the power level of campaigns.

To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels. Rationalize, Mass Manipulation, Shadow Perspective, Animal Succulence, Earthshock, Star Magnetism, Spark of Rage, amongst others were all moved into lower levels.

[Herr Meister]

To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels. Rationalize, Mass Manipulation, Shadow Perspective, Animal Succulence, Earthshock, Star Magnetism, Spark of Rage, amongst others were all moved into lower levels.

Exactly, and in v20, most powers were actually buffed and polished.

[blailton]

To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels. Rationalize, Mass Manipulation, Shadow Perspective, Animal Succulence, Earthshock, Star Magnetism, Spark of Rage, amongst others were all moved into lower levels.

The vastly majority is still out, like anything elder of serpentis, auspex, obfuscate, dementation, Chimestry, etc. Etc. Etc.

V5 didnt moved "a lot" of elders powers to lower level... just a few of them.