Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why are Elder Powers so... awful?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
    V5 I have even less interest in due to Paradox's issues but I've heard nothing good about it mechanically
    That's rather strange. Even not liking everything about its mechanics and almost nothing of its lore, and effectively disliking V5 in general, I did hear a lot of good about its mechanics and actually liked most of what I saw myself. As far as I can tell it needs polishing in many places, but is a better foundation than the old system.

    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post
    To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels.
    Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
    Exactly, and in v20, most powers were actually buffed and polished.
    Both valid approaches.

    V5 is still lacking an oomph for elder vampires, but generally speaking I prefer to bring things to their lower possible levels, as it makes them more accessible and as such more versatile. But buffing them for their appropriate levels is more than an adequate option, specially for the ones you really want to keep as elder powers at least in that form.

    Originally posted by blailton View Post
    The vastly majority is still out, like anything elder of serpentis, auspex, obfuscate, dementation, Chimestry, etc. Etc. Etc.

    V5 didnt moved "a lot" of elders powers to lower level... just a few of them.
    While true, and I also miss those options, I think this must be seen in context.

    V5 still has too few books in comparison to any other edition, and a lot of other things it needs to do with them. While there are many valid complaints about it, the number of powers being brought back is, for now, adequate to the publication history.


    #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
    #AutismPride
    She/her pronouns

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
      That's rather strange. Even not liking everything about its mechanics and almost nothing of its lore, and effectively disliking V5 in general, I did hear a lot of good about its mechanics and actually liked most of what I saw myself. As far as I can tell it needs polishing in many places, but is a better foundation than the old system.



      Both valid approaches.

      V5 is still lacking an oomph for elder vampires, but generally speaking I prefer to bring things to their lower possible levels, as it makes them more accessible and as such more versatile. But buffing them for their appropriate levels is more than an adequate option, specially for the ones you really want to keep as elder powers at least in that form.


      While true, and I also miss those options, I think this must be seen in context.

      V5 still has too few books in comparison to any other edition, and a lot of other things it needs to do with them. While there are many valid complaints about it, the number of powers being brought back is, for now, adequate to the publication history.
      But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by blailton View Post
        But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.
        Setting aside that Dementation was a poorly written Discipline to begin with and generally weak, saying that the Discipline is gone forever when it is just represented by another mechanical design isn't the best way to address that you simply dislike this design.

        Most of Dementation was just a fluff-heavy but weaker version of select powers from Auspex, Dominate and, arguably, Presence. Given the new open design of Disciplines you can still apply most of the original Dementation flavor to those powers, but actually getting more out of them. Other than that, the only power really unique to it is in V5 Core, pp. 256.

        Even the "nerf stick" is arguable, I agree that elders are currently seriously nerfed, but they haven't been the focus yet and otherwise the edition is a mixed bag on this regard, not a consistent weakening by any measure. The bigger changes to "power level" do not affect anything higher than 7º Generation, in a game that never intended for such games being remotely common. Dementation itself is a fine example of a Discipline that is actually overall stronger now than before, as its powers are better defined, most are in the same or a lower level, and Total Insanity, its signature power, dropped all the way from level 5 to frigging level 2. Only The Haunting is truly absent from the Core book.

        You're doing a lot of reverse argumentation here. Instead of saying V5 is bad for not having Dementation, you're saying V5 will never have Dementation because it is bad, all the while it actually has it. I don't like how they handled some Disciplines and I hate a lot of the lore, but I won't in good faith deny merit where merit is due or the benefit of the doubt for future products.


        #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
        #AutismPride
        She/her pronouns

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by blailton View Post

          But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.

          Any book with a "Dementation/Broken Mirror Wisdom/Can I Play with Madness loresheet" or whatever one wants to call it, if there's need for some thematic glue for what can quite easily be adapted (or ported over from previous editions) into V5, V20 or whichever you prefer as discipline combos or alternate powers? As Monteparnas pointed out, the fact Dementation - or Chimerstry, Obtenebration, Serpentis, Vicissitude or whatever one fancies - as a discipline its own is gone is not a real loss if the powers themselves still exist, though in a somewhat different arrangement.

          Less is more, having VtM's past egregious excess of signature disciplines broken down and reinserted as extra options within the "core" ones makes things more dynamic, fluid and unpredictable for PC and NPC creation, all good things imho.
          Last edited by Baaldam; 05-20-2022, 09:43 AM.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
            Look at the Elder disciplines in Player's guides to the high/low clans for example, specifically the celerity elder powers. The elder powers for the physical disciplines are Full of crap in later editions, but in Guide to the high clans there isn't a single celerity power that wouldn't be worth taking.
            I don't think there is any really Celerity Elder Discipline that is not at least decent.
            The ones for Potence and Fortitude are mostly either useless or easily replicated with powers of much lower level.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Aahz View Post
              I don't think there is any really Celerity Elder Discipline that is not at least decent.
              The ones for Potence and Fortitude are mostly either useless or easily replicated with powers of much lower level.
              Zephyr. The idea is really interesting, but as a level 8 power it sucks.


              #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
              #AutismPride
              She/her pronouns

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                Zephyr. The idea is really interesting, but as a level 8 power it sucks.
                True, Precision and Tireless Tread are also kind of lacklustre, but there are some really strong Celerity disciplines in other books, like Projectile and Flower of Death.

                While the ones for the other physical disciplines are even in guides to the high/low clans for the most part pretty weak.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Frankly, I was always of the opinion that physical disciplines didn't need specific powers for levels over 5, you are already a physical god at that point, like seriously at fortitude 8 you would be functionally unkillable by anything that isn't plot device, potence above 6 means you are killing or incapacitating most beings in a turn, celerity above 5 speaks for itself, the powers (especially the fortitude ones) are a waste of xp in my opinion.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Aahz View Post
                    True, Precision and Tireless Tread are also kind of lacklustre, but there are some really strong Celerity disciplines in other books, like Projectile and Flower of Death.

                    While the ones for the other physical disciplines are even in guides to the high/low clans for the most part pretty weak.
                    Oh, there's not even a comparison. Celerity has possibly the best list of elder powers in the game, while the other physicals are average for elder powers, and that means underwhelming. In their case, consistently underwhelming, but many Disciplines are like this.

                    Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
                    Frankly, I was always of the opinion that physical disciplines didn't need specific powers for levels over 5.
                    The point isn't so much the Disciplines, but the very concept of Elder Powers.

                    We have lists of powers because the idea is, basically, that at this point the character has such mastery over that aspect of the power of the blood that they're stretching things beyond normal boundaries and developing signature powers. The powers listed should be just examples. In theory level 5 is true mastery, above that is what a blood god can craft into reality.

                    So, why should the Physical ones be different? Specially when conceptually even their standard effects shouldn't be there?

                    Not that I think they got a good execution of this, or the right design overall. I don't think that's the case for Elder Powers in general.


                    #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                    #AutismPride
                    She/her pronouns

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                      Oh, there's not even a comparison. Celerity has possibly the best list of elder powers in the game, while the other physicals are average for elder powers, and that means underwhelming. In their case, consistently underwhelming, but many Disciplines are like this.


                      The point isn't so much the Disciplines, but the very concept of Elder Powers.

                      We have lists of powers because the idea is, basically, that at this point the character has such mastery over that aspect of the power of the blood that they're stretching things beyond normal boundaries and developing signature powers. The powers listed should be just examples. In theory level 5 is true mastery, above that is what a blood god can craft into reality.

                      So, why should the Physical ones be different? Specially when conceptually even their standard effects shouldn't be there?

                      Not that I think they got a good execution of this, or the right design overall. I don't think that's the case for Elder Powers in general.

                      The thing with the physical disciplines powers is that they are all things that you would be able to accomplish with just the dots anyway, you can already touch fire with fortitude 7, you already should cause lethal with potency at 5 anyway, you would already kill someone by running into them if you have celerity at 8, these things should all be natural consequences of giving the normal law of physics the finger, having powers for doing such things is superflous, a different matter for the other disciplines which would definitely fit with the idea that elders have powers aking to gods.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
                        The thing with the physical disciplines powers is that they are all things that you would be able to accomplish with just the dots anyway, you can already touch fire with fortitude 7, you already should cause lethal with potency at 5 anyway, you would already kill someone by running into them if you have celerity at 8, these things should all be natural consequences of giving the normal law of physics the finger, having powers for doing such things is superflous, a different matter for the other disciplines which would definitely fit with the idea that elders have powers aking to gods.
                        Unless there's a rule for that, no, they shouldn't do any of those things. And if there is a rule for that, then it is reasonable to have those powers stated as there is a rule.

                        You think those effects are reasonable or even required by logic? That's fair, but that's not how the game works. And it isn't even necessarily true. There are many ways to explain why the powers have the mechanics they have and why they don't have other mechanics attached to them.

                        Anyway, this is still about the specific list of powers, which is a bad list. They could have other effects instead of those. They could even have those effects instead of increasing the usual. As I said before, conceptually speaking 5 is mastery, there's no need for those Disciplines to still have the same effects above 5. Yet they do, because that's a simple, easy design, even if not necessarily correct.

                        But by all means, I don't believe in assuming logic to the point of granting actual non-stated mechanical benefits, as a designer I have many reasons to see this as flawed and riff with problems. So unless there are specified rules I missed (which is possible), I don't think any of those are granted.


                        #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                        #AutismPride
                        She/her pronouns

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Newb95 View Post
                          Frankly, I was always of the opinion that physical disciplines didn't need specific powers for levels over 5, you are already a physical god at that point, like seriously at fortitude 8 you would be functionally unkillable by anything that isn't plot device, potence above 6 means you are killing or incapacitating most beings in a turn, celerity above 5 speaks for itself, the powers (especially the fortitude ones) are a waste of xp in my opinion.

                          On the other hand, the physicals suffer from the law of diminishing returns. The difference between a neonate with the first dot of celerity and one without is night and day as the one without is only taking half as many turns. The difference between a methusela with celerity 9 and an ante with celerity 10 is 1 extra turn, which probably never comes up as one of them will most likely have already met final death by then.


                          In this way, elder physical disciplines makes sense conceptually, as they're a way to make physical disciplines more blood-godly than just "hulk smash, Even Harder". The execution left a lot to be desired though.

                          Comment


                          • I wonder in which alternative reality do these people who think Fortitude 8 makes you only vulnerable to plot device levels of damage, lol! Any pulp still poses a threat to vampires with Fortitude 8 without special powers. In fact, I once had a game with a friend with Fortitude 8, and he took damage from a group of Constantinople's guards in the game and he complained a lot about the fact, after that I decided to make Fortitude auto soak, instead of rolling dice. By the way, if you go with stupid 3rd edition rules (God forbid!), you'd only roll your Fortitude to soak any kind of aggravated damage and as such even with 8, you'd still be FAR from "invulnerable".

                            With that being said, it's hard to think of a single decent advanced Fortitude power created in the books and that's why I chose to create a bunch and adapt things like Juggernaut's Gait from Requiem in order to have anything useful for the discipline in advanced powers. Celerity, on the other hand, has a good share of awesome powers. It seems the guys who developed powers in the books weren't very fond of one the most defining features of vampires in most folklores, that is being resilient.
                            Last edited by Herr Meister; 08-15-2022, 07:07 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Herr Meister View Post
                              I wonder in which alternative reality do these people who think Fortitude 8 makes you only vulnerable to plot device levels of damage, lol! Any pulp still poses a threat to vampires with Fortitude 8 without special powers. In fact, I once had a game with a friend with Fortitude 8, and he took damage from a group of Constantinople's guards in the game and he complained a lot about the fact, after that I decided to make Fortitude auto soak, instead of rolling dice. By the way, if you go with stupid 3rd edition rules (God forbid!), you'd only roll your Fortitude to soak any kind of aggravated damage and as such even with 8, you'd still be FAR from "invulnerable".

                              With that being said, it's hard to think of a single decent advanced Fortitude power created in the books and that's why I chose to create a bunch and adapt things like Juggernaut's Gait from Requiem in order to have anything useful for the discipline in advanced powers. Celerity, on the other hand, has a good share of awesome powers. It seems the guys who developed powers in the books weren't very fond of one the most defining feature of vampires in most folklores, that is being resilient.

                              DAV20 has fortitude changed to being able to soak your fortitude rating automatically then roll for soak with a point of blood. short of pissing off a bunch of high ranking werewolves with the stupid gift that doesn't let you spend blood, I can't think of anything realistically capable of dropping you at that point.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Newb95 View Post


                                DAV20 has fortitude changed to being able to soak your fortitude rating automatically then roll for soak with a point of blood. short of pissing off a bunch of high ranking werewolves with the stupid gift that doesn't let you spend blood, I can't think of anything realistically capable of dropping you at that point.

                                Well, werewolves have many ways of dealing more than 8 Aggravated per attack, not only werewolves, but also vampires and mages, changelings and the list is long lol. So, I'd say that even without thinking of terribly designed "one win button" gifts, the vampire is far from being that hard to damage. In any case, I don't even think Dam the Heartflood is that "stupid" like you called it, the problem is the developers forgot to give the other part a resisting roll, like they did with Paws of the newborn cub. That being a werewolf gift in a werewolf game isn't a big deal, but when you think about crossovers you need to at least make it a contested roll to give these powers at least a semblance of being well devised at all and not just a "fuck this splat" kind of power lol

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X