Why are Elder Powers so... awful?

[monteparnas]

V5 I have even less interest in due to Paradox's issues but I've heard nothing good about it mechanically

That's rather strange. Even not liking everything about its mechanics and almost nothing of its lore, and effectively disliking V5 in general, I did hear a lot of good about its mechanics and actually liked most of what I saw myself. As far as I can tell it needs polishing in many places, but is a better foundation than the old system.

To be accurate, V5 just moved a lot of elder powers into lower levels.

Exactly, and in v20, most powers were actually buffed and polished.

Both valid approaches.

V5 is still lacking an oomph for elder vampires, but generally speaking I prefer to bring things to their lower possible levels, as it makes them more accessible and as such more versatile. But buffing them for their appropriate levels is more than an adequate option, specially for the ones you really want to keep as elder powers at least in that form.

The vastly majority is still out, like anything elder of serpentis, auspex, obfuscate, dementation, Chimestry, etc. Etc. Etc.

V5 didnt moved "a lot" of elders powers to lower level... just a few of them.

While true, and I also miss those options, I think this must be seen in context.

V5 still has too few books in comparison to any other edition, and a lot of other things it needs to do with them. While there are many valid complaints about it, the number of powers being brought back is, for now, adequate to the publication history.

[blailton]

That's rather strange. Even not liking everything about its mechanics and almost nothing of its lore, and effectively disliking V5 in general, I did hear a lot of good about its mechanics and actually liked most of what I saw myself. As far as I can tell it needs polishing in many places, but is a better foundation than the old system.



Both valid approaches.

V5 is still lacking an oomph for elder vampires, but generally speaking I prefer to bring things to their lower possible levels, as it makes them more accessible and as such more versatile. But buffing them for their appropriate levels is more than an adequate option, specially for the ones you really want to keep as elder powers at least in that form.


While true, and I also miss those options, I think this must be seen in context.

V5 still has too few books in comparison to any other edition, and a lot of other things it needs to do with them. While there are many valid complaints about it, the number of powers being brought back is, for now, adequate to the publication history.

But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.

[monteparnas]

But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.

Setting aside that Dementation was a poorly written Discipline to begin with and generally weak, saying that the Discipline is gone forever when it is just represented by another mechanical design isn't the best way to address that you simply dislike this design.

Most of Dementation was just a fluff-heavy but weaker version of select powers from Auspex, Dominate and, arguably, Presence. Given the new open design of Disciplines you can still apply most of the original Dementation flavor to those powers, but actually getting more out of them. Other than that, the only power really unique to it is in V5 Core, pp. 256.

Even the "nerf stick" is arguable, I agree that elders are currently seriously nerfed, but they haven't been the focus yet and otherwise the edition is a mixed bag on this regard, not a consistent weakening by any measure. The bigger changes to "power level" do not affect anything higher than 7º Generation, in a game that never intended for such games being remotely common. Dementation itself is a fine example of a Discipline that is actually overall stronger now than before, as its powers are better defined, most are in the same or a lower level, and Total Insanity, its signature power, dropped all the way from level 5 to frigging level 2. Only The Haunting is truly absent from the Core book.

You're doing a lot of reverse argumentation here. Instead of saying V5 is bad for not having Dementation, you're saying V5 will never have Dementation because it is bad, all the while it actually has it. I don't like how they handled some Disciplines and I hate a lot of the lore, but I won't in good faith deny merit where merit is due or the benefit of the doubt for future products.

[Baaldam]

But for ex: in what kind of book they would bring Dementation elders powers? Boston by night? Theres no Dementation anymore and those powers are not coming back. Remember vampires were beaten with the nerf stick in v5.

Any book with a "Dementation/Broken Mirror Wisdom/Can I Play with Madness loresheet" or whatever one wants to call it, if there's need for some thematic glue for what can quite easily be adapted (or ported over from previous editions) into V5, V20 or whichever you prefer as discipline combos or alternate powers? As Monteparnas pointed out, the fact Dementation - or Chimerstry, Obtenebration, Serpentis, Vicissitude or whatever one fancies - as a discipline its own is gone is not a real loss if the powers themselves still exist, though in a somewhat different arrangement.

Less is more, having VtM's past egregious excess of signature disciplines broken down and reinserted as extra options within the "core" ones makes things more dynamic, fluid and unpredictable for PC and NPC creation, all good things imho.