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Vampire 5e - Kenneth Hite revealed as the lead developer

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  • #76
    Originally posted by nunboi View Post

    Now you're speaking my language (sorry to be a couple days late to reply to your comment), I can only speak to this from a US perspective, but was your friend born between 1960 and 1980? In the US that's Generation X, and it's pretty much the height and end of the sort of subcultures, particularly based on around, that influenced VtM. The following generation places much less emphasis on subculture, treating it as a more fluid identified than a tribal one - you don't just go to the goth clubs, you go to goth club on Friday and the metal show on Sunday. Ease of communication and socialization has minimized those constructs in favor of other affiliations. As an old ass Millennial that came up in a subculture, it's fascinating to watch unfold.
    Thanks for adding you thoughts, don't worry about the timing! Honestly, the whole subcultures thing is among my favorite topics, so...

    No, she was born a bit later, we're all from the end of the '80s, although Eastern Europe had something of a cultural lag, so there's that. Regardless, she isn't even a goth, or really a metalhead, she is into '70s music the most, especially Beatles.

    Otherwise, I agree about the reasons of why the boundaries of subcultures softened up. It's not necessarily a bad thing and those things, like ease of communication could help the subcultures too, but something was surely lost with it. I'm just happy that goth seems to be okay. Not necessarily because I'm that goth (I'm a geek goth at best), but I like the aesthetics and all the stuff and I'm happy that some subcultures are doing well still.

    However, the exact thing we talked about with the aforementioned friends in that case wasn't just subcultures, but cities, for example and gentryfication in conjunction. That is what she meant by "everything is losing it's edge" that everything is on the process to becoming an unified, smooth, pastel-colored thing all over the world. Generally I'm somewhat pro-globalization and free exchange of things, etc. but that, the losing of the local "edge" is somewhat I really-really don't like about it and it resembles subcultures in the sense of losing diversity.

    I hope it made sense.


    If nothing worked, then let's think!

    Comment


    • #77
      Well, you are describing memetic erosion, where new memes replace old memes because the new memes are more popular (not necessarily better but, because they are more globally popular, they overwhelm local memes).

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
        Well, you are describing memetic erosion, where new memes replace old memes because the new memes are more popular (not necessarily better but, because they are more globally popular, they overwhelm local memes).
        Hmm, I didn't heard that particular phrase so far, thanks!

        Yeah, that's the phenomenon in a nutshell. I think the internet has a tremendous role in it (and it makes the situation a bit more complex than pure popularity of memes), but that's not really a new idea.

        Also, while I'm really not an isolationist person ( I really-really don't like our leading party's rhetoric, for example), I still think we should fight for the "local edge" be the local an actual location, or subculture. and that we shouldn't just lay down in the face of globalization. I don't want Budapest to feel exactly like Berlin, or London, or Los Angeles, or San Francisco or vice versa thanks and I don't want the subcultures to disappear, because I like the diversity of styles, thoughts, etc.
        Last edited by PMárk; 05-16-2017, 08:05 PM.


        If nothing worked, then let's think!

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        • #79
          Originally posted by anda View Post
          Does anyone know if the 5th edition's metaplot will continue from where Revised left off?
          WWP said that Beckett's Jyhad Diary is going to be the book to reference for metaplot fo V5. So that's going to be the bridge between the Revised metaplot and the new metaplot... though without that book in our hands yet, it's hard to say how that impacts any specific metaplot element.

          Comment


          • #80
            I agree that people should keep the local flavors. Without local flavors, you cannot have the blending of cultures as immigrants move into new locations, meaning that you do not get the synthesis that leads to better cultures. What we have with globalization is replacement rather than synthesis, and we lose the aspects of local culture that may enrich people (though there are plenty of aspects of local, and global, culture that are best forgotten).

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by PMárk View Post

              And that's what funny to me. There's a certain group of people, who are checking in in every V5 related topic to say that they won't buy/support it or that they're completely disinterested in VtM/CWoD. Ok, that's perfectly fine, but then, why bother to write it down again and again in those threads?

              I go to forums about games I like to discuss and yes, even criticize. I don't frequent forums about games I'm completely disinterested in. I just don't get the appeal of doing so.

              It will be VtM, it will be CWoD, WW will do it. If you already made up your mind based on those facts, then why waste time on it?
              I post about why I won't buy V^2 because I've spent years looking far, far too deeply into VtM for my own damn good. When I say it, it's a way of expressing a profound disappointment and sense of sadness that comes with the end of a long and treasured setting being 'right' for me, and also a hope that maybe enough pressure will reverse the tide. It isn't, so I keep posting my disappointment and emailing white wolf and encouraging others to do so.

              This is because I am not completely disinterested. You could accurately say I am extremely interested - because interest does not necessarily entail approval or a willingness to support or condone a company's decisions. It can entail the exact opposite, especially in the case of longrunning fans of a product.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                Thanks for adding you thoughts, don't worry about the timing! Honestly, the whole subcultures thing is among my favorite topics, so...

                No, she was born a bit later, we're all from the end of the '80s, although Eastern Europe had something of a cultural lag, so there's that. Regardless, she isn't even a goth, or really a metalhead, she is into '70s music the most, especially Beatles.

                Otherwise, I agree about the reasons of why the boundaries of subcultures softened up. It's not necessarily a bad thing and those things, like ease of communication could help the subcultures too, but something was surely lost with it. I'm just happy that goth seems to be okay. Not necessarily because I'm that goth (I'm a geek goth at best), but I like the aesthetics and all the stuff and I'm happy that some subcultures are doing well still.

                However, the exact thing we talked about with the aforementioned friends in that case wasn't just subcultures, but cities, for example and gentryfication in conjunction. That is what she meant by "everything is losing it's edge" that everything is on the process to becoming an unified, smooth, pastel-colored thing all over the world. Generally I'm somewhat pro-globalization and free exchange of things, etc. but that, the losing of the local "edge" is somewhat I really-really don't like about it and it resembles subcultures in the sense of losing diversity.

                I hope it made sense.

                Makes total sense! All of my New York friends miss the days before Time Square was cleaned up, while I'm from Los Angeles, and miss when Santa Monica (a dirty beach neighborhood) wasn't full of high end shops and traffic. From my experience gentrification doesn't kill underground culture (a term I think is more fitting as subculture is more tribal in nature), However, reflecting on the subject, the underground scenes never go away, they just move locations. Here in LA Hollywood used to be the place to go, back in the 90s and early 00s, but moved to neighborhoods to the south and east - it's just harder to stay on top of these things as you get older and don't have the time and energy to keep up.

                As it relates to subculture, I find the ease of communication has caused them to be more fleeting - they come in and out of existence, drawing like minder people. A few years ago Witch House was THE big thing for a second and then it became Seapunk. Then the new EBM movement started, etc etc. If you're familiar with the comic book The Invisibles, subculture is like what they call a "Fiction Suit," a personality that you put on. Back in the day it was a key part of one's identity - that lucky sweater. Now people trade them more easily - it's a whole wardrobe!

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                  WWP said that Beckett's Jyhad Diary is going to be the book to reference for metaplot fo V5. So that's going to be the bridge between the Revised metaplot and the new metaplot...
                  Thanks! Super stoked about that book now!

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    Who is Kenneth Hite?
                    So I noticed no one really bothered to anwser your question. Hite is a very prolific RPG writer who has been working since the 90's on stuff including Deadlands, GURPS, Star Trek, Delta Green and multiple World of Darkness books. The man is very well read on quite a few topics and is a pleasure to talk with.

                    He is very popular for running a weekly podcast together with Robin D Laws, called "Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff". This is the two of them discussing game design, plots, interpretations, occultism, spycraft, movies and anything and everything that could help you with designing a game or a story for one. It's quite fun and inspirational, and I really love to hear the strange quirks of history and how they use them.

                    What Hite has been the best known for the last couple of years is his Pelgrane Press work, which is based on the Gumshoe system designed by Laws. Gumshoe is a system that makes the characters extraordinary investigators and plays up that people can do awesome stuff if they want but it will tire them out and they will need a break. He has developed two Gumshoe games already, with a third in the pipeline (The Fall of Delta Green, about the 70s)

                    His first Pelgrane work was Trail of Cthulhu, a 30s Gumshoe variant of Call of Cthulhu, with excellent mood and thematic integration of the Gumshoe system. It's a great CoC variant and its alternate takes and interpretations of Mythos Entities are an excellent source of inspiration.

                    Most important to us is, however, his work on the Nights Black Agents. NBA is a RPG about burned spies (and similar characters) in the vein of James Bond, Jason Bourne or Michael Westen. These characters are out to find out who burned them and take down the (usually) vampire conspiracy that was behind it.

                    The game is a brilliant take on the hunter type game and comes with amazing tools. Every power and monster is presented in such a way that you could make many variants and interpretations and easily build your own antagonists that would suit a different game type or a different monster antagonist. It also has an amazing system for getting unwanted government attention and an AI for how large conspiracies react to players dismantling them and attacking their nodes known as the Conspyramid.

                    What makes NBA even better is the Dracula Dossier, which may be the single best Vampire adventure ever made. It consists of an anotated copy of Stoker's Dracula that you hand to the players as a prop and let them pick their own clues from, and a huge book that just gives you a toolkit how to handle an improvisational campaign with a ton of npcs, organisations, agendas, locations, items and frameworks. What's best is that all of these offer multiple different takes and interpretations on who they are and what their use in the plot might be.

                    In general, Hite is an erudite with good design ideas, who gets into deep research and minutiae of what he's working on and who really knows how to represent the themes and moods of the game. His work on Night's Black Agents proves that he can make amazing Vampire stuff. He also has some very strong stances on why Vampires need to be monsters even if they hide behind a veneer of civility. Him being hired for this is something that I'm glad as its a recognition of his great work so far, and I believe he might do great things with this.

                    ... I'm just not 100% sure that his views on Vampires and how a setting should work will mesh well with the mindset we've been seeing from NuWW.


                    What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

                    Comment


                    • #85

                      Thanks chum!


                      It is a time for great deeds!

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by nunboi View Post


                        Makes total sense! All of my New York friends miss the days before Time Square was cleaned up, while I'm from Los Angeles, and miss when Santa Monica (a dirty beach neighborhood) wasn't full of high end shops and traffic. From my experience gentrification doesn't kill underground culture (a term I think is more fitting as subculture is more tribal in nature), However, reflecting on the subject, the underground scenes never go away, they just move locations. Here in LA Hollywood used to be the place to go, back in the 90s and early 00s, but moved to neighborhoods to the south and east - it's just harder to stay on top of these things as you get older and don't have the time and energy to keep up.

                        As it relates to subculture, I find the ease of communication has caused them to be more fleeting - they come in and out of existence, drawing like minder people. A few years ago Witch House was THE big thing for a second and then it became Seapunk. Then the new EBM movement started, etc etc. If you're familiar with the comic book The Invisibles, subculture is like what they call a "Fiction Suit," a personality that you put on. Back in the day it was a key part of one's identity - that lucky sweater. Now people trade them more easily - it's a whole wardrobe!
                        Don't want to derail the thread, but it's an interesting discussion, so I think I'd create another thread for it and copy the relevant posts to that okay?


                        If nothing worked, then let's think!

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Asmodai View Post

                          So I noticed no one really bothered to anwser your question. Hite is a very prolific RPG writer who has been working since the 90's on stuff including Deadlands, GURPS, Star Trek, Delta Green and multiple World of Darkness books. The man is very well read on quite a few topics and is a pleasure to talk with.

                          He is very popular for running a weekly podcast together with Robin D Laws, called "Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff". This is the two of them discussing game design, plots, interpretations, occultism, spycraft, movies and anything and everything that could help you with designing a game or a story for one. It's quite fun and inspirational, and I really love to hear the strange quirks of history and how they use them.

                          What Hite has been the best known for the last couple of years is his Pelgrane Press work, which is based on the Gumshoe system designed by Laws. Gumshoe is a system that makes the characters extraordinary investigators and plays up that people can do awesome stuff if they want but it will tire them out and they will need a break. He has developed two Gumshoe games already, with a third in the pipeline (The Fall of Delta Green, about the 70s)

                          His first Pelgrane work was Trail of Cthulhu, a 30s Gumshoe variant of Call of Cthulhu, with excellent mood and thematic integration of the Gumshoe system. It's a great CoC variant and its alternate takes and interpretations of Mythos Entities are an excellent source of inspiration.

                          Most important to us is, however, his work on the Nights Black Agents. NBA is a RPG about burned spies (and similar characters) in the vein of James Bond, Jason Bourne or Michael Westen. These characters are out to find out who burned them and take down the (usually) vampire conspiracy that was behind it.

                          The game is a brilliant take on the hunter type game and comes with amazing tools. Every power and monster is presented in such a way that you could make many variants and interpretations and easily build your own antagonists that would suit a different game type or a different monster antagonist. It also has an amazing system for getting unwanted government attention and an AI for how large conspiracies react to players dismantling them and attacking their nodes known as the Conspyramid.

                          What makes NBA even better is the Dracula Dossier, which may be the single best Vampire adventure ever made. It consists of an anotated copy of Stoker's Dracula that you hand to the players as a prop and let them pick their own clues from, and a huge book that just gives you a toolkit how to handle an improvisational campaign with a ton of npcs, organisations, agendas, locations, items and frameworks. What's best is that all of these offer multiple different takes and interpretations on who they are and what their use in the plot might be.

                          In general, Hite is an erudite with good design ideas, who gets into deep research and minutiae of what he's working on and who really knows how to represent the themes and moods of the game. His work on Night's Black Agents proves that he can make amazing Vampire stuff. He also has some very strong stances on why Vampires need to be monsters even if they hide behind a veneer of civility. Him being hired for this is something that I'm glad as its a recognition of his great work so far, and I believe he might do great things with this.

                          ... I'm just not 100% sure that his views on Vampires and how a setting should work will mesh well with the mindset we've been seeing from NuWW.

                          Honestly, I'm glad a well-regarded developer get the lead seat. My two biggest gripes:

                          1. His latest works are mostly games in the style I like less, system-wise.

                          2. As you mentioned, his thoughts on vampires. I get it, I really do, sparkly-sparkly and his friends and the whole contemporary supernatural-romantic literature got too far to my tastes too. However, vampires in VtM are monsters, yes, but for one, redeemable monsters (without hope, there's no reason to fight, IMO) and for two, they're the protagonists of the game and not everyone likes to play totally bastard, monstrous characters every time.


                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by PMárk View Post


                            Honestly, I'm glad a well-regarded developer get the lead seat. My two biggest gripes:

                            1. His latest works are mostly games in the style I like less, system-wise.

                            2. As you mentioned, his thoughts on vampires. I get it, I really do, sparkly-sparkly and his friends and the whole contemporary supernatural-romantic literature got too far to my tastes too. However, vampires in VtM are monsters, yes, but for one, redeemable monsters (without hope, there's no reason to fight, IMO) and for two, they're the protagonists of the game and not everyone likes to play totally bastard, monstrous characters every time.
                            For what's worth Humanity is still a thing in the alpha playtest fo VV . And in the Presentation for this new edition they showed a slide saying they waanted to have protagonists who "balanced between monster and hero". So i think mister hite won't do wholly evil vampires this time

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                              For what's worth Humanity is still a thing in the alpha playtest fo VV . And in the Presentation for this new edition they showed a slide saying they waanted to have protagonists who "balanced between monster and hero". So i think mister hite won't do wholly evil vampires this time
                              Hope so. It's a bit like the situation of the Drow in D&D and Pathfinder. When Paizo did their drow-centered campaign, there was a whole sidebox about how the drow are evil and supposed to be evil and that they're primarily antagonists. That's cool, if you want them to be just that, antagonists (incidentally that is one of the very few things i like in FR more than Golarion, I like Drow to be playable). So I get it as a concept and as a reaction to the trend of de-monstifying (is that a term?) the monsters. However, if you want the monsters to e the game's protagonists, you'll need more shades of grey and occasionally even the point of light or I don't think a lot of people would play it long-term. Antiheroes and selfish, reluctant bastards as protagonists are way more interesting, IMO, than totally evil, monstrous bastards. The latter could be interesting occasionally, but not in the long run.

                              Take Only Lovers Left Alive, for example (I tend to bring it up frequently, since it is my favorite modern vampire movie so far). The vampires in that film are monsters, yes, but quite more than just that and dare I say, even sympathetic!

                              I hope that even if Mr. Hite has very strong opinions on the topic (and I don't really know what is his whole opinion) the whole team will balance each other out at the end.
                              Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 05:32 PM.


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by anda View Post
                                Does anyone know if the 5th edition's metaplot will continue from where Revised left off? I mean will we have Ur-Shulgi awake and the Ravnos wiped out and all that?

                                I read something earlier in the thread that Gehenna happened but it wasn't the real deal? How will that be handled since we were given different scenarios of what Gehenna was, which all were very different and would have very different consequences on a continued metaplot.

                                I would personally love to see them continue where Revised left off cuz I was such a huge metaplot fan.

                                The presentation talks about Elders being called to the East, though some have been able to resist it, to fight in something called the Gehenna Wars in old, ancient pre-history temples. So I think the assumption is that Gehenna is ongoing, as the Camarilla has closed itself off as the 'old boys club' and letting the streets be run by the Anarchs. Also, on the Sabbat and wars, they stated the Sabbat followed the Elders to the East and are using the conflicts there to 'play everyone against everyone, playing all sides'. I don't think the intent was that vampires STARTED the conflicts out that way, just that they're using it to their own advantage. Or at least, that's what I got from listening to the interview.

                                Also, nothing was said about 9/11 in either of the videos from WoD Berlin. The 9/11 comments come from an interview where Martin talked about using modern events in the genre. The exact quote is 'If you can write about WW2 you can write about 9/11'. It was never implied, that I can find anywhere, that VAMPIRES DID 9/11 ZOMG GUYS!
                                Last edited by elmerg; 05-17-2017, 11:02 PM.

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