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  • #76
    Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

    Can't it be both?
    In Marvel comics? Sure. In a place where the homeless problem is being supported so they can be literally kidnapped and eaten by corpses? No. Because then it boils down to the logical fallacy. "If the Technocracy is omnipotent all-powerful benevolent conspiracy then WHY is the world even worse than it is in our world?"

    Also, it's a bizarre punk game where the government and rich corporations are the good guys out to help the masses.

    I feel weird as the guy who has to point this out, too, as I've done six Technocracy campaigns in my games. Working for the MIB is great as a campaign premise. It's just when I do, I don't try and make my bosses GOOD people anymore than I would the Camarilla.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-17-2017, 02:44 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Mind you, I actually felt they zigged when they should have zagged with the Union...
      Not that this is anything but a derail, but duality and the unavoidable contradictions that arise during the course of self-actualization is a key theme in Mage. The only group that doesn't cleave to a societal ideal utopian only to them, and a craven hellhole for anyone else, are the Nephandi and only then because they don't delude themselves about what will happen if they ever "win". That's why and how the Ascension War is a self-sustaining phenomenon, why it's been present throughout history in one form of another for as long as humans have awakened Avatars, and why it will never end sparing apocalyptic external events.

      Nobody's "right", but on the other hand nobody's "wrong", but everyone is too concerned with how "wrong" everyone else is to see where and how they are. That's the entire goddamn point.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

        And this is even more hyperbole. Where do you get the idea that every successful faith healing brings death and horror to millions?
        Because all paradigms can't be simultaneously true. That's what the whole Ascension War is about - which paradigm will reign supreme. So an etherite who makes successful homeopathic treatments is sabotaging normal medicine worldwide in favor of his own paradigm.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
          Because all paradigms can't be simultaneously true. That's what the whole Ascension War is about - which paradigm will reign supreme. So an etherite who makes successful homeopathic treatments is sabotaging normal medicine worldwide in favor of his own paradigm.
          Not to pull the tag on your pillow but, uh, isn't that all of the paradigms can comfortably exist together the entire ethos of the Traditions? I mean, you're welcome to state it's not possible but you need to take a moment to acknowledge by accepting there can be only one paradigm and one way to elevate humanity you are buying implicitly the Technocracy as correct, which is difficult given the Traditions have not only gotten along fine but have gotten along fine for centuries.

          It also seriously undermines the Virtual Adepts and Sons of Ether as real science characters.

          Computers don't suddenly stop working if you believe in God.

          But this is probably exactly why the Traditions and Technocracy stopped going to war in Revised. The Ascension War was always meant to be a stupid waste of millions of lives and ideas--but fans became invested in it. It's why the Technocracy and Traditions have been at peace for almost 20 years. Most Unionists and Traditionalists in 2018 have probably never fought in the Ascension War.

          In 5th Edition, it seems vampires are the Union's current enemies.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-17-2017, 02:59 PM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            In Marvel comics? Sure. In a place where the homeless problem is being supported so they can be literally kidnapped and eaten by corpses? No. Because then it boils down to the logical fallacy. "If the Technocracy is omnipotent all-powerful benevolent conspiracy then WHY is the world even worse than it is in our world?"
            The world now is a better place than it was back in the 12th century. Like, waaaaay better. And that's the only comparison the Technocracy has to win. They don't need to fight against our world where there is no Technocracy, but also no magic, no vampires and no werewolves.

            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            Also, it's a bizarre punk game where the government and rich corporations are the good guys out to help the masses.
            The general assessment is that this is an unintended result of the way mage setting was structured.

            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            I feel weird as the guy who has to point this out, too, as I've done six Technocracy campaigns in my games. Working for the MIB is great as a campaign premise. It's just when I do, I don't try and make my bosses GOOD people anymore than I would the Camarilla.
            The Technocracy doesn't have to be made out of good people for its mission to be good. The argument of the pro-Technocracy fans is that even compared to the puppy-kicking, baby-eating, kill-the-poor Technocracy of the first edition, what the Traditions want is worse.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              It also seriously undermines the Virtual Adepts and Sons of Ether as real science characters.
              Virtual Adepts are comfortably working within the Technocratic worldview, so they aren't really being undermined at all.

              But Sons of Ether are not and have never been "real science characters". In fact, they've always been the most anti-science faction out there. Because that's the premise of the Sons of Ether. That they take a pet theory and run around with it, evidence be damned. Which is the textbook definition of bad science.

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              • #82
                The Technocracy falsifies science because they lie about the fact magic doesn't exist. The Sons of Ether attempt to create actual science by incorporating magic into their theories.

                The SOE have had some bad ideas but like the Fishmalks, their actual core science is fine. They believe in analyzing reality and not making up results to control it.

                Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                The world now is a better place than it was back in the 12th century. Like, waaaaay better. And that's the only comparison the Technocracy has to win. They don't need to fight against our world where there is no Technocracy, but also no magic, no vampires and no werewolves.


                The general assessment is that this is an unintended result of the way mage setting was structured.


                The Technocracy doesn't have to be made out of good people for its mission to be good. The argument of the pro-Technocracy fans is that even compared to the puppy-kicking, baby-eating, kill-the-poor Technocracy of the first edition, what the Traditions want is worse.
                I pretty much reject that and go with the idea the Union wants to keep humanity from awakening so they can control how it progresses and Traditions want to awaken humanity so they can use their powers to heal all wrongs.

                And the Traditions support science as a means of awakening.

                But itr doesn't matter either way because the Ascension War ended 2 decades ago and humanity didn't revert to barbarism.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                  Because all paradigms can't be simultaneously true. That's what the whole Ascension War is about - which paradigm will reign supreme. So an etherite who makes successful homeopathic treatments is sabotaging normal medicine worldwide in favor of his own paradigm.
                  This argument doesn't follow, though. You're saying that individual actions cause societal problems, and I don't think anyone has that kind of power.

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                  • #84
                    So back to Vampire jobs.

                    Easy ways of Kindred making money.

                    1. Ghouldom: Find someone incredibly rich and take over their lives with making them a blood slave. Also, have the ghouls run your business.

                    2. Fraud: Dominate and Presence are very good to get people to invest in your Ponzi scheme or criminal activity.

                    3. Prostitution: There's no problem whatsoever with getting a free meal and money at the same time.

                    4. Thief: Being a vampire is an excellent tool for criminal activity and stealing cars or getting into houses to steal jewelry and other items is easy.

                    5. Drug dealer: Especially when you have the benefit of being almost unkillable, incredibly persuasive, and probably have contacts with the other folk among the undead.

                    6. Blood Bank Owner: Not just for yourself but having people deliver your supplies to other undead.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Kammerer View Post

                      The Technocracy doesn't have to be made out of good people for its mission to be good. The argument of the pro-Technocracy fans is that even compared to the puppy-kicking, baby-eating, kill-the-poor Technocracy of the first edition, what the Traditions want is worse.
                      This isn't the WoD we're given, however. This is the WoD fans have interpreted. It has as much support as anyone else's idiosyncratic view of how the WoD works. Which is to say, very little.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

                        This isn't the WoD we're given, however. This is the WoD fans have interpreted. It has as much support as anyone else's idiosyncratic view of how the WoD works. Which is to say, very little.
                        It's also about as accurate to any portrayal of the Traditions (and I mean ANY) as the Empire being the noble force of justice against the Rebellion that wants to destroy all law and order in the galaxy. Seriously, the biggest problem with the Traditions is they ARE a boring good guy faction.

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                        • #87
                          One of the biggest ironies of Mage for me (this is still the vampire forum, right?) has always been that while the Traditions are treated like free-booting, chaos agents, giving a middle finger to the establishment, they have much more static paradigms than the Technocracy.

                          Take any of the nature-oriented mystic traditions, like Verbena, Dreamspeakers or some Ecstatics. There are rules that govern what happens when you slice open a deer and pack their gut with a mix of herbs, or make a promise to a lake spirit and then step out onto the water, or when you dance all night and collapse, only to awaken and it's next year. And this is the important part, those rules have been the same for a very, very long time. Long, like beyond human memory. Oh, some of the details change, like whether you dance to the tribe drumming or a techno dj, but the basic worldview and premises that are taken for granted have been static, possibly since the rise of behaviorally modern humans.

                          The same is true, in a slightly lesser way, for the sort of "high magick" bunch, like the Hermetics, Solificati, Ahlibatin, and some Euthanatos. The same sigils, the same symbolic alchemy, and so forth, maybe not as old as the nature mystics, but quite old... like between Sumeria and Renaissance old.

                          In the Technocracy, otoh, one of the hardest parts of playing one of their members is keeping up with exactly what the current public paradigm is.

                          Mendelian genetics has given way to molecular genetics, and what's coincidental is about to explode with Crispr/Cas9. Einstein's stable universe died, after suffering a long and painful death from exposure to red shift. Out of Asia origin of humans has shifted to Africa. Lysenokism rose and fell. Classical Physics, though a close enough approximation for daily work, has long been superseded by a relativistic universe and quantum physics. M-theory sort of unified the various string theories, but keep CERN on speed dial, 'cause, who knows what crazy stuff they're slamming into other crazy stuff over there? Steady State cosmology was in vogue before the Big Bang... theory, not the bang itself.

                          All of these were taught as likely true scientific theories at some point in living memory. But, there are much more recent examples.

                          Mixed axial-gravitational anomalies are the only place where pions decay into gravitons, and those only exist on the edges of blackholes and right after the big bang. This is was a Known Truth about the universe. Exceeeeept for an average lab table in Geneva, at room temperature, if you have a ribbon of a Weyl semimetal. If it's warmer on one side of the ribbon than the other, pions will decay into gravitons. And it will also create a charge. This was not Truth until Wednesday of this week.

                          That's right, when I bought the soy milk I am drinking right now, there was something that absolutely could not happen in the Techno paradigm, except in the very close proximity of a black hole.

                          Now, today, this afternoon, if you have a particularly unusual metallic ribbon, you can generate a charge, and cause sub-atomic particles to decay. In your living room. At room temperature.

                          Now that's a dynamic paradigm.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            So back to Vampire jobs.

                            6. Blood Bank Owner: Not just for yourself but having people deliver your supplies to other undead.
                            I disagree with this one. In the United States blood banks, when they're not run by hospitals themselves or through large national organizations like the Red Cross, tend to operate as nonprofit community organizations. As registered non profit organizations, they're held to high standards of transparency and accountability, specifically when it comes to their finances. Add in the additional regulation and inspection requirements that would have to come from the local or state board of health, at any given time your organization would be under intense scrutiny to make the casual pilfering of blood a difficult proposition. And before you say, "Just Dominate or Presence the auditors," remember that these are government bureaucrats doing the auditing. Which means on the 9-4:30 business day schedule.

                            Even if the practices at the organization were entirely above board, and you limited your feeding to only drinking the expired blood no longer suitable for human transfusion, you're trying to make a living as the head of a local non-profit. Not exactly a path to riches, if it pays at all.


                            I seem to have acquired a site for running play by post games. This is unexpected and frightening and come watch either the glorious play or the magnificent train wreck:

                            The Malkavian Madness Network

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

                              I disagree with this one. In the United States blood banks, when they're not run by hospitals themselves or through large national organizations like the Red Cross, tend to operate as nonprofit community organizations. As registered non profit organizations, they're held to high standards of transparency and accountability, specifically when it comes to their finances. Add in the additional regulation and inspection requirements that would have to come from the local or state board of health, at any given time your organization would be under intense scrutiny to make the casual pilfering of blood a difficult proposition. And before you say, "Just Dominate or Presence the auditors," remember that these are government bureaucrats doing the auditing. Which means on the 9-4:30 business day schedule.

                              Even if the practices at the organization were entirely above board, and you limited your feeding to only drinking the expired blood no longer suitable for human transfusion, you're trying to make a living as the head of a local non-profit. Not exactly a path to riches, if it pays at all.
                              Which is why you don't take over the blood bank. You take over the commercial or government facility that handles biowaste disposal. Biowaste disposal such as blood, which has only 40 days shelf life and is disposed afterwards*. The blood doesn't actually spoil that quickly, but for medical purposes it's best not to take risks.

                              *unless it's a rare and valuable blood type, in which case it's frozen.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by BenjCano View Post

                                I disagree with this one. In the United States blood banks, when they're not run by hospitals themselves or through large national organizations like the Red Cross, tend to operate as nonprofit community organizations. As registered non profit organizations, they're held to high standards of transparency and accountability, specifically when it comes to their finances. Add in the additional regulation and inspection requirements that would have to come from the local or state board of health, at any given time your organization would be under intense scrutiny to make the casual pilfering of blood a difficult proposition. And before you say, "Just Dominate or Presence the auditors," remember that these are government bureaucrats doing the auditing. Which means on the 9-4:30 business day schedule.

                                Even if the practices at the organization were entirely above board, and you limited your feeding to only drinking the expired blood no longer suitable for human transfusion, you're trying to make a living as the head of a local non-profit. Not exactly a path to riches, if it pays at all.
                                That depends if you think transparency and high standards exist in the WOD.

                                Which is debatable

                                This is the nature of the "Real world" vs. "Sin City with vampires" take of the WOD.

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