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Shouldn't the kuei-jin be a lot more cautious?

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  • Shouldn't the kuei-jin be a lot more cautious?

    I mean, they know with absolute certainty that they are going to Hell if they die before achieving Golconda. Cainites don't know that with certainty. Humans generally believe that they will go to Heaven, and the more violent ones often believe that that violence will help them get to heaven. Kuei-jin meanwhile have very clear-cut evidence that they are going to Hell if they don't achieve something that could easily take millenia They've got outstanding, empirically verified evidence that they need to avoid dying. This should lead to them forming iron-clad peace-treaties with each other, and avoiding conflict with other supernaturals at all costs. Yet that doesn't seem to be the case.

  • #2
    Take a look at Dante's Inferno. People used to believe you could go to Hell for even very minor offenses. And still there was plenty of sinning going on. People just can't help themselves, vampires obviously don't do much better.

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    • #3
      Yeah, but humans haven't actually been to Hell, and don't have mechanical effects making it clear how close/far they are to escaping Hell.

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      • #4
        Ironclad peace treaties are very hard to make with "people" that doesn't have your best interest in mind, and as easy to break as someone doing something stupid (probably while overestimating her chances of getting away with it).

        That being said, they do seem to have some sort of strong, unwritten, peace treaty:

        The relationship between Kuei and everything else in China it's much more civil than in the rest of the world. Think about it: Kuei hadn't an anarch revolt (they have problems, but no conflict of the size of the Sabbat/Anarchy), they really respect their Elders, the fera leave them alone as long as nobody does anything stupid, the Technocracy (Five Metal Dragons) was more tolerant with the supernatural than in the west. Everyone knows their place. Only violations of the "supernatural status quo", like demons that go against Dharma (and the usual power hungry sociopaths), are a common risk for them. That's as sweet a deal as you can get.

        Perhaps they attack Cainites because they don't trust them to keep similar "peace treaties" (and, really who would trust in them?). Having in mind how effective were the Kuei eradicating vampires in Asia, they did their work pretty well.
        Last edited by Aleph; 07-28-2017, 01:09 PM.

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        • #5
          Should they be? That depends, which Dharma are we talking about? There are some that gather enlightenment from stillness and caution. There are at least as many that require you to do the opposite. Going against that can be a moment of blindness, which means that you're not exactly escaping hell that way, exactly.

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          • #6
            Better a moment of blindness than Hell. You can get that Dharma point back at some point, but only if you are alive to do so. But if you die, even at Dharma 9, that's it, you're in Hell forever.

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            • #7
              I thought Hell wasn't forever in the Asian mythology KotE draws upon, more like a limited prison sentence before reincarnation?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                I thought Hell wasn't forever in the Asian mythology KotE draws upon, more like a limited prison sentence before reincarnation?
                If you're talking about the synthesis of Buddhism and various other cultures, that is indeed true... most of the time. Particularly grave misdeeds might land you into Avici, also known as the Unlimited Hell; while there seems to be some split takes on how long you stay there, it is a far more permanent home, at the very least, than the other narakas. Additionally, The 1000 Hells notes that the intended purpose of most narakas is for spiritual cleansing, but that there are also lots and lots of rogue rulers of hell who just use them to get fat on suffering instead. As in, it takes less time to list the ones who are still doing their jobs than the ones who aren't.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                  I mean, they know with absolute certainty that they are going to Hell if they die before achieving Golconda. Cainites don't know that with certainty. Humans generally believe that they will go to Heaven, and the more violent ones often believe that that violence will help them get to heaven. Kuei-jin meanwhile have very clear-cut evidence that they are going to Hell if they don't achieve something that could easily take millenia They've got outstanding, empirically verified evidence that they need to avoid dying. This should lead to them forming iron-clad peace-treaties with each other, and avoiding conflict with other supernaturals at all costs. Yet that doesn't seem to be the case.
                  Unfortunately the only way for Kuei-jin to avoid going to hell is to eventually reach enlightenment. And the only way to do that is to successfully walk their dharmic path. And sadly there is no dharmic path of, "Sit inside a cave and never do anything remotely dangerous and eventually reach the Hundred Clouds" All of the paths (even the Thousand Whispers) require the Kuei-jin to undertake actions that could be very dangerous. Ultimately the Kuei-jin have to engage with the spirits, the dead, humanity and the world.

                  Remember that if you're not working towards walking your dharmic path, and indeed actively avoiding doing so because you're scared of suffering the potential consequences, that is going to cause moments of blindness which will give your Po a stronger foothold over your existence, and that road is one that will, with 100% certainty, lead to a dead end.

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                  • #10
                    The Wan Kuei escaped Hell once before, who's to say they can't do it again?

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                    • #11
                      On p. 144 of KoTE, they say that the soul of the KJ falls into Oblivion and never returns if they suffer final death.

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                      • #12
                        ...huh.

                        I thought they went back to Hell if they died. Oh well.

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                        • #13
                          Have you ever done anything that you know is objectively bad for you? Hit someone? Gotten Drunk? Bing watched at TV Series? Spent time on a Messageboard talking about the drives of fictional supernatural beings when you could have spent that time personally working to improve your body or mind? People are complicated trying to simplify their actions to one basic motive isn't going to work.

                          This is before we get into quite a large number of Jina basically blame white people for their trip to hell. They died during the golden age of imperalism and still have a chip on their shoulder over it. You also have people who are taking any statement as gospel from all sorts of elders(who will manipulate you) as if they do X they won't go back to hell.

                          Let me put this another way, do you think Atheists are the most cautious people IRL because they don't believe in an afterlife?

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                          • #14
                            The Jina have good reason to blame white people for their troubles because of more recent things like the Vietnam War.

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                            • #15
                              All good food for thought.

                              So the KJ objectively KNOW they'll get sucked into Oblivion and die forever if they die before reaching 10 in their Dharma... yet they are pushing westward and eastward and attacking Cainites? Furthermore, KJ don't get to embrace, they rise randomly. What on earth are they doing fighting pitched warfare?

                              At least Wraiths absolutely have to interact with their Fetters if they want to Ascend and avoid Oblivion, and have a Shadow (a PC or NPC who is TRYING TO STOP THEM (still a concept I'm in love with)), so most of them "dying" makes sense... but the KJ? I can't see them picking fights with Kin-Jin, ever.
                              Last edited by 11twiggins; 07-30-2017, 03:01 PM.

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