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Shouldn't the kuei-jin be a lot more cautious?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    Let me put this another way, do you think Atheists are the most cautious people IRL because they don't believe in an afterlife?
    Imagine if every Atheist could see the whirlwind of a cosmic plug-hole sucking every soul into it. Imagine if every atheist was unaging and could hypothetically live forever. Imagine if every atheist knew, with absolute certainty, that if they reached a certain level of self-actualization they could be spared and 'live' eternally in another realm.

    Apples /=/ Oranges.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
      All good food for thought.

      So the KJ objectively KNOW they'll get sucked into Oblivion and die forever if they die before reaching 10 in their Dharma... yet they are pushing westward and eastward and attacking Cainites? Furthermore, KJ don't get to embrace, they rise randomly. What on earth are they doing fighting pitched warfare?
      It's probably worth remembering that the Kuei-jin have been to hell .They know better than anyone what it's like. And they know full well what will happen when the Yama Kings take control of the world. Many of their actions are (misguided or not) for the purposes of stalling, pushing back or even preventing the day the Yama Kings grow ascendant and take control of the world. Many of the Kuei-jin believe that western vampires are harbingers of the end of the times and that if they can push them back they can deal a serious blow to the Yama Kings.

      *Edit* I mean they're not heroes or anything, but this sense of religious and dharmic duty is one of the primary facets of the Kuei-jin's social system.
      Last edited by AnubisXy; 07-30-2017, 11:55 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

        It's probably worth remembering that the Kuei-jin have been to hell .They know better than anyone what it's like. And they know full well what will happen when the Yama Kings take control of the world. Many of their actions are (misguided or not) for the purposes of stalling, pushing back or even preventing the day the Yama Kings grow ascendant and take control of the world. Many of the Kuei-jin believe that western vampires are harbingers of the end of the times and that if they can push them back they can deal a serious blow to the Yama Kings.

        *Edit* I mean they're not heroes or anything, but this sense of religious and dharmic duty is one of the primary facets of the Kuei-jin's social system.
        Why does EVERY supernatural think Kindred are harbingers of doom? I mean the Mummies think they're servants of Apophysis/Apep (their interpretation of the Wyrm and/or Oblivion), the Garou and Fera think they're symptoms of the Wyrm's madness, and now the Kuei Jin think that Kindred are some problem relating to the Yama Kings.

        Obviously Vampires aren't *nice* on average, and their parasitic nature will draw some odd beliefs, but it just feels a bit silly that they all feel this way... unless they're right, which they certainly could be, RAW. Personally I frame Vampires as a symptom of what's wrong with the world; killing them will do absolutely nothing to stop the Apocalypse, unless they are active servants of it (Abyss Mystics, Infernalists, allies of Pentex, Set-worshipers, the True Black Hand). Most Vampires like the world continuing to exist in its current form, they are as much creatures of stasis as they are of death, and they take GREAT pains to murder Vampires who want to disrupt the current order.
        Last edited by 11twiggins; 07-31-2017, 06:08 AM.

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        • #19
          Kindred are a contagious parasitic supernatural force that could spread across the world quite quickly. If every existent Kindred of 13th generation or lower needed to, they could easily convert one person per night into new Kindred, increasing the global population ratio of new Kindred from 1:100,000 to 1:300 in a year. There is simply no other supernatural force in oWoD capable of that rate of growth.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

            Imagine if every Atheist could see the whirlwind of a cosmic plug-hole sucking every soul into it. Imagine if every atheist was unaging and could hypothetically live forever. Imagine if every atheist knew, with absolute certainty, that if they reached a certain level of self-actualization they could be spared and 'live' eternally in another realm.

            Apples /=/ Oranges.
            No its not. I objectively 100 percent know every fast food meal Brings me closer to Death. Every Cigarette smoker knows with 100 percent certainty Cigarettes cause cancer. Normal people aren't hyper rational beings and they don't have an evil voice in the back of their head pushing them to destroy themselves. They won't ever be so hungry they will murder everyone they see. They will never be so afraid of something they will lose all sense of self to run away.

            Also... KJ don't objectively know anything. They don't know what happens if they die again. They don't know what happens with enlightenment(or they wouldn't have heresies) and they pretty much do objectively know they aren't going to live forever. They know Hell is clawing its way into this world. That even a thousand years of life is "borrowed time"

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Lian View Post

              No its not. I objectively 100 percent know every fast food meal Brings me closer to Death. Every Cigarette smoker knows with 100 percent certainty Cigarettes cause cancer. Normal people aren't hyper rational beings and they don't have an evil voice in the back of their head pushing them to destroy themselves. They won't ever be so hungry they will murder everyone they see. They will never be so afraid of something they will lose all sense of self to run away.

              Also... KJ don't objectively know anything. They don't know what happens if they die again. They don't know what happens with enlightenment(or they wouldn't have heresies) and they pretty much do objectively know they aren't going to live forever. They know Hell is clawing its way into this world. That even a thousand years of life is "borrowed time"
              You know that each crappy meal is pushing you closer to death, yes. But you ARE going to die. You have a finite lifespan regardless. May as well live well, right? Quality over quantity. When you're functionally immortal, it's a whole other story. Of course there are KJ who will take risks and do shitty stuff regardless of what they believe is true, we're not rational, BUT they have more reason on average to slow down and think about these sorts of things, and a whole society based around making them sit down and think. A KJ who uses their powers just to gain temporal power and "play house" with mortals, beat up their old bullies, charm their old flames... they're getting a dressing down from an Elder eventually since they're squandering their existence and failing to work towards that all-important 10 points in Dharma.

              Since KJ literally get more powerful, like in a measurable definitive way, as they move up their Dharma, they have evidence that *something* is getting better as they approach 10. They may not have 100% verifiable "yes you will ascend" proof, but they have EVERY reason to believe it.
              Last edited by 11twiggins; 07-31-2017, 09:35 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by 11twiggins
                Why does EVERY supernatural think Kindred are harbingers of doom? I mean the Mummies think they're servants of Apophysis/Apep (their interpretation of the Wyrm and/or Oblivion), the Garou and Fera think they're symptoms of the Wyrm's madness, and now the Kuei Jin think that Kindred are some problem relating to the Yama Kings.

                Obviously Vampires aren't *nice* on average, and their parasitic nature will draw some odd beliefs, but it just feels a bit silly that they all feel this way... unless they're right, which they certainly could be, RAW. Personally I frame Vampires as a symptom of what's wrong with the world; killing them will do absolutely nothing to stop the Apocalypse, unless they are active servants of it (Abyss Mystics, Infernalists, allies of Pentex, Set-worshipers, the True Black Hand). Most Vampires like the world continuing to exist in its current form, they are as much creatures of stasis as they are of death, and they take GREAT pains to murder Vampires who want to disrupt the current order.
                Even vampires believe to be the harbingers of doom, with "the final nights" and all that. Elders have a tendency to ally with really nasty supernatural forces (Set aided the literal servants of Apep while developing his black magic that explicitly oposes all good egiptian deities, Lasombra fused with the Abys, Tzimisce and Kupala, Saulot wanted to become the demon king of the sixth age).

                I seem to remember that, in the end of times, Kuei are nearly eliminated when the one Tremere that they had let live in their territory opens the doors of hell, or something like that.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                  You know that each crappy meal is pushing you closer to death, yes. But you ARE going to die. You have a finite lifespan regardless. May as well live well, right? Quality over quantity. When you're functionally immortal, it's a whole other story. Of course there are KJ who will take risks and do shitty stuff regardless of what they believe is true, we're not rational, BUT they have more reason on average to slow down and think about these sorts of things, and a whole society based around making them sit down and think. A KJ who uses their powers just to gain temporal power and "play house" with mortals, beat up their old bullies, charm their old flames... they're getting a dressing down from an Elder eventually since they're squandering their existence and failing to work towards that all-important 10 points in Dharma.

                  No they aren't. KJ have a term for a KJ who's going through that phase. its called "Running Monkey" its expected they will do these sorts of thing then grow out of them. They also have no more reason to know any of these things except someone tells them so.

                  Since KJ literally get more powerful, like in a measurable definitive way, as they move up their Dharma, they have evidence that *something* is getting better as they approach 10. They may not have 100% verifiable "yes you will ascend" proof, but they have EVERY reason to believe it.
                  Its not really noticable until dharma 5 that's Ten years at minimum and probably much longer for most. That's internally. Externally the idea that those weird powers some elder pulls out are "Elder powers" is something one has to take for granted.. from the Elder. There's a damned good reason the Scorpion Eaters are a growing Dharma.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                    On p. 144 of KoTE, they say that the soul of the KJ falls into Oblivion and never returns if they suffer final death.
                    Just because we as players know that, doesn't mean the Wan Kuei themselves know for certain what happens.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                      Kindred are a contagious parasitic supernatural force that could spread across the world quite quickly. If every existent Kindred of 13th generation or lower needed to, they could easily convert one person per night into new Kindred, increasing the global population ratio of new Kindred from 1:100,000 to 1:300 in a year. There is simply no other supernatural force in oWoD capable of that rate of growth.
                      Consider the odds of that actually happening.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                        Why does EVERY supernatural think Kindred are harbingers of doom? I mean the Mummies think they're servants of Apophysis/Apep (their interpretation of the Wyrm and/or Oblivion), the Garou and Fera think they're symptoms of the Wyrm's madness, and now the Kuei Jin think that Kindred are some problem relating to the Yama Kings.

                        Obviously Vampires aren't *nice* on average, and their parasitic nature will draw some odd beliefs, but it just feels a bit silly that they all feel this way... unless they're right, which they certainly could be, RAW. Personally I frame Vampires as a symptom of what's wrong with the world; killing them will do absolutely nothing to stop the Apocalypse, unless they are active servants of it (Abyss Mystics, Infernalists, allies of Pentex, Set-worshipers, the True Black Hand). Most Vampires like the world continuing to exist in its current form, they are as much creatures of stasis as they are of death, and they take GREAT pains to murder Vampires who want to disrupt the current order.
                        The other gamelines generally don't see them as harbingers of Doom. They see them as a sewage drain flowing into the river. They are "shitting" where everyone else eats so that's generally why no one likes them. They don't even have priority of being Harbingers of Doom. They are this thing that occasionally shows up that takes a shit in the middle of your table. They spread Banality, Their presence causes Wraiths to Gain Angst. Kindred Disciplines supposedly twist the chi lines just by being used. They create a certain level of general "Wyrminess" in society sure they don't want the world to burn... but neither do most passive servants they just make the world kind of worse they thrive on a level of political corruption and apathy that make cities more bane friendly.

                        That's before the fact that your average Kindred will try and use you as a pawn in their scheme.

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                        • #27
                          If they were publicly exposed and faced annihilation, I imagine that the chance would be very high, as each new Kindred becomes an alternative target for the people hunting Kindred.

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                          • #28
                            If vampires began mass embracing people on the scale you're talking about then they would never be able to maintain the mascaraed, by the end of the week they'd have humans waking them up mid day with stakes and flame throwers.
                            Last edited by The Direful Spring; 07-31-2017, 04:12 PM.

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                            • #29
                              If Vampires went "viral" then judicious use of Dominate and Presence via Technothaum (people who call for help on their phone get a Dominate command to come out into the street and surrender for example) could have newly embraced Vampires embracing before you know it, as just one example. The problem is that if you try and embrace EVERYONE you're left with no blood supply. Any smart Vampire would try and curb this virality.

                              HOWEVER I think a group of Vampires trying to get virality could be an interesting Masquerade breach. I'd try and sell it as a sort of aggressive plague that drove people crazy like Mad Cow Disease did with cows; I'd blame bioterrorists and fabricate a group's claim on the attack. Causes aggressive hallucinations, distrust of authority, fever... wipe away all the Fledgelings and remove memories of the events from the minds of all the people who *matter* (reporters, politicians, police)... with authority figures toeing the line of it being a plague, people will rationalize the events away in many cases, but there will of COURSE be massive fallout (and you can expect serious Hunter issues in the following years).
                              Last edited by 11twiggins; 07-31-2017, 04:26 PM.

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                              • #30
                                But the newly embraced vampires won't embrace people. Even blood bonded their sires will have so many childes on their hands they won't be able to deal with them and force them to obey them. You'd end up with hundreds of vampires who newly embraced managed to summon up the will power to stab their new so called master, who from their prospective brutally assaulted and kidnaped them, in the back thus freeing up all their other childes who are also now freed of their blood bond are going to be pretty damn pissed. The idea that everyone who is fed from rationalises it is sketchy enough the idea that people would rationalise mass dominating and embracing of an entire city is ridicules. Confused and newly embraced vampires would be captured and the truth of vampirism would be known world wide. Mass purges ensue.

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