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Would a character like this even be feasible in a Sabbat game?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    Sires often sense there is something wrong with their Childe if they are Caitiff... definitely read that in a V20 book. They just... sense something.

    This does happen but how much of it is nature vs nurture is up for debate. Its never "the sire spends 50 years training them to be a proper ventrue then goes "hey you've been faking it the whole time" its an immediate dumping. This seem to be the "Real" Catiff flaw. They don't know vampire society and don't have any level of development. Even Gangrel shenanigans. No one is constantly feeling their clanness its a momement of "This embrace is a mistake"


    If you want to be a Caitiff who slipped through the net, take Personal Masquerade as a merit. Your Sire didn't really think much of it, or wasn't sensitive to such things.
    Or they picked up enough knowledge over time to fake it. Tremere before he went all in faked being a Brujah. Faking being in clans isn't super hard it just requires the right knowledge and tells. Which they don't have to start.

    Personally I've always wanted to try the "I'm LAIBON!" trick with a Catiff.

    A Gangrel childe can have Protean, Fortitude, Animalism and the Gangrel Weakness (3 point flaw) but still be a Caitiff. The only mechanical deviation is that their Childer won't be Gangrel (and may seem nothing like Gangrel), and that they learn at 6x rather than 5x and 7x. There will be Caitiff who don't even know they're Caitiff, or are in denial.
    While this mechanically possible I'd say its heavily violating the spirit of the game. Especially on Nos/Gangrel who's deciding traits for most are physical deformities. "Oh that guy has animal features he's clearly a catiff" is just bullshit.

    Similarly, there are "Ventrue" who are pretending to have feeding restrictions, "Brujah" playing up their aggressive side and "Malkavians" having a bad night every few weeks.
    Its less about the flaws and more about having the right levels of basic knowledge for cultural cues. If the other members of the clan think he's of clan X or you know he's got animal features people are going to accept it.

    Furthermore, there will be "Caitiff" who are mechanically actually a member of a Clan or Bloodline. Maybe they were just socially disowned. Maybe they just don't know what Clan they are, and were abandoned at the embrace and therefore presumed Caitiff.

    Lets do an experiment a Ventrue embraces two childer one he raises and one that gets teleported to a random city across the world. They both have feeding restriction. They both have the proper inclans. But the one who is randomly teleported will be catiff because he will never be able to trace his lineage.




    So Caitiff is a complicated concept, as we have "biological" Caitiff and social Caitiff. The two often overlap, but not always.
    I'd say the common point is the lack of socialization. A catiff who gets a proper clanned accounting while mechanically catiff will be able to pull off being said clan.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post

      Every other clan? I recall a reference to Ravnos beasts whispering temptation at them. Being more sophisticated and cunning.

      That's even better, maybe every Clan has it's own Beast, maybe the Malkavians have an insane, unpredictable Beast, maybe the Ventrue's Beast beckons them to dominating their enemies and gaining power, interesting.

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      • #63
        I don't think Vampire needs another justification for more cliched characters, some variety within each Clan is a good thing.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post


          That's even better, maybe every Clan has it's own Beast, maybe the Malkavians have an insane, unpredictable Beast, maybe the Ventrue's Beast beckons them to dominating their enemies and gaining power, interesting.

          The Ravnos beast is "Different" is held out in the same place that implies they are some sort of midpoint between Kindred and Kuei-jin

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post


            That's even better, maybe every Clan has it's own Beast, maybe the Malkavians have an insane, unpredictable Beast, maybe the Ventrue's Beast beckons them to dominating their enemies and gaining power, interesting.
            That would be kinda cool.

            I think Vampire V is going in that direction, which isn't necessarily a bad thing (I have a lot of issues with what I've seen so far but that basic idea is not so bad).

            Originally posted by Lian View Post


            The Ravnos beast is "Different" is held out in the same place that implies they are some sort of midpoint between Kindred and Kuei-jin
            This is true, but it doesn't mean the Ravnos Beast isn't different. They may simply be misattributing the cause.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Malkavian87 View Post
              I don't think Vampire needs another justification for more cliched characters, some variety within each Clan is a good thing.
              Well there have to be an excuse for why certain vampires act in a certain way, most if not all Ventrue should be "Lords over the damned" otherwise the clan loses its defining schtick. What matters is how they do it, there's multitudes of roads to gaining power, and that's where it gets interesting.

              Same thing with the Toreador, every Toreador have their specialized art, but whether it's fashion design, woodcarving or jerking the strings of influential Kindred in a twisted puppet show. The same thing goes for every other clan.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                Well there have to be an excuse for why certain vampires act in a certain way, most if not all Ventrue should be "Lords over the damned" otherwise the clan loses its defining schtick. What matters is how they do it, there's multitudes of roads to gaining power, and that's where it gets interesting.

                Same thing with the Toreador, every Toreador have their specialized art, but whether it's fashion design, woodcarving or jerking the strings of influential Kindred in a twisted puppet show. The same thing goes for every other clan.
                The rationale to me has been based around selective embraces and sire tutelage. As well as the fact that not all Ventrue are Lords Over the Damned. A lot of clan members are similar because of the prior two things. As well as the fact that not all actually fit the stereotype. I think there is a lot of room between most and all.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                  Well there have to be an excuse for why certain vampires act in a certain way, most if not all Ventrue should be "Lords over the damned" otherwise the clan loses its defining schtick. What matters is how they do it, there's multitudes of roads to gaining power, and that's where it gets interesting.

                  Same thing with the Toreador, every Toreador have their specialized art, but whether it's fashion design, woodcarving or jerking the strings of influential Kindred in a twisted puppet show. The same thing goes for every other clan.
                  That's like saying we need a genetic reason for why most Arabs are Muslim or why most Indians are Hindu. When culture and history should suffice. And with vampires also weaknesses and Discipline sets pushing them a certain way. That's plenty. We'd lose a lot with V:tM if something made the Clan stereotypes inescapable.

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                  • #69
                    I agree. Clan stereotypes should just be stereotypes, which is one of the reasons why the compulsions of V5 rub me the wrong way.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                      Well there have to be an excuse for why certain vampires act in a certain way, most if not all Ventrue should be "Lords over the damned" otherwise the clan loses its defining schtick. What matters is how they do it, there's multitudes of roads to gaining power, and that's where it gets interesting.

                      Same thing with the Toreador, every Toreador have their specialized art, but whether it's fashion design, woodcarving or jerking the strings of influential Kindred in a twisted puppet show. The same thing goes for every other clan.

                      Toreador aren't a clan of artists they are the clan addicted to Beauty, while this means they CAN be artists it doesn't mean they need to have a specialized art, they can in fact entirely BE consumers of art.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Lian View Post


                        Toreador aren't a clan of artists they are the clan addicted to Beauty, while this means they CAN be artists it doesn't mean they need to have a specialized art, they can in fact entirely BE consumers of art.
                        These are the poseurs, examples include Velvet Velour from Bloodlines and Veronica Abbey-Roth from the Revised corebook

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