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  • #46
    Because it sells very, very well. I would not be surprised if V20 is outselling VtR by 2:1 (though I am not privy to OPP sales figures).

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post


      A Thousand Years of Night is at 5, V20 at 19.
      And Book of Secrets is 3. and the requiem 2e core is 38. And the V20 is still 19. after 6 years... Your point?

      Also, is that list lists the best-sellers of the month?

      look, I don't want a war, I'm just saying that Masquerade had it's due. The core V20 book was good as a homage but... V20 companion? Anarchs Unbound? Lore of the Clans? Why?
      And what is exactly you goal? Clearly, a lot of people, even people, who started with this edition disagrees with you that Masquerade's place should be 6 foot under the surface with a stake in its heart.

      Why all the books? Because people like to read books about topics they're interested in. Like, for example, updated material for an existing rpg line's new edition and adding new material. You don't want to say that the 20th books didn't add anything new, do you?

      If you're frustrated that Requiem doesn't get as much books as Masquerade, well, the CofD fans could say more about it, but I think you'd be happier soon, because it seems like things on the developers' side are starting to work out for the better and also, when WW will come out with V5, OPP will probably have more resources to push the CofD lines forward.


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      • #48
        Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post


        A Thousand Years of Night is at 5, V20 at 19.

        look, I don't want a war, I'm just saying that Masquerade had it's due. The core V20 book was good as a homage but... V20 companion? Anarchs Unbound? Lore of the Clans? Why?
        V20 Companion: Because as omnibus as V20 core was, some stuff had to be cut
        Anarchs Unbound: Because the last time we read anything about the Anarchs, the most up-to-date phones were flip ones. There is 10 years of sociopolitical change for the Anarchs to catch up with
        Lore of The Clans: Because those lore segments were strews across 13 clan rulebooks, numerous other sourcebooks, and Lilith only knows what else, written at different times, for different editions, with vastly different tones. As scattershot as LotC is, it still condensed all of that into one book.

        And as long as at least one person on this forum is posting, the Masquerade aint over (ironically, from an IC perspective). Requiem never got to me, it never absorbed my attention the way V:tM (2nd/rev/20, I am too young to have seen 1st) has. Besides, as others have noted, if it werent for V20, a lot of players, me included, would resent V:tR as "the game that killed Masquerade ". Now, its "that other Vampire game that is almost, but not quite, Masquerade "

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
          V20 companion? Anarchs Unbound? Lore of the Clans? Why?
          Because V20 didn't have room for a total in-depth explanation of the titles in the two major sects. How does a Primogen compare to a Priscus? V20 Companion is useful if you need an answer to that.

          Anarchs Unbound, for me, is an objective improvement on past writings on the Anarchs since it leaves so much room for great stories. I've built my entire Chronicle off of that book, along with Lore of the Clans, Lore of the Bloodlines and V20 itself. One of my players is a veteran and she says she's never had so much fun, so obviously something has gone right.

          I suggest you read Anarchs Unbound, carefully. Our narrator is a Ventrue who despises the way his Clan has impacted him. How others censor themselves around him and defer to him; even Anarchs treat him like he has some natural affinity for authority, so he makes efforts to avoid the topic of lineage. The book is wonderful in that it addresses the successes and the tragic failures of the Anarchs. How they often end up degenerating into turf warfare, or resorting to becoming Soft Camarilla. How they espouse a rejection of Clan limitations, but in the end revert to old bigotries.

          I suggest your read the Tzimisce chapter of Lore of the Clans. Our narrator is a Fiend who is inscribing a tapestry of history in the flesh of a captured person. They narrate the history of the Clan, from its nascence to the origin of the Sabbat, up to modern nights. Their description of Kupala's Night is one of the most wonderful things I've ever read. They actually justify the Tzimisce discipline spread in a way that feels... right. They conjure up an image of the Clan that elevates it far beyond the stock villains that many STs bastardize them as, far beyond "ooh have flesh powers am so creepy", which is the only outing they seemed to get in earlier editions. This chapter gives the word Tzimisce some weight, and makes the terror that comes with it feel earned.

          I suggest you read Hunters Hunted ll. The little bit of fiction at the end of the chapter on the Order of St Leopold? It made me cry. I won't spoil it here, but it was breathtaking. It expanded what it meant to be a Hunter. They're not all seeking revenge. Some are adrenaline junkies. Some are the type of privileged moron who shoots endangered animals. Something that hit me hard is how it describes Hunters killing eachother; their paranoia and fear of Vampires leads to them destroying themselves, their enemy wins without even knowing they ever existed. It is a genuine undeniable improvement to its predecessor.

          I often see an empty platitude being tossed around; V20 is nice, but Revised really got the right feel. V20 is neat and accessible, Revised is dirty and raw and has soul. Now this is a matter of opinion, however I feel that the assertion is unfounded. V20 has some incredibly well-written fluff, and the small bits of fiction delivered in the text can be exceptional. Maybe if they'd made the books black and white and kept an Edgy art-style the average perception would be different ;-)

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post


            A Thousand Years of Night is at 5, V20 at 19.
            ​Is that current sales or numbers sold since release?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Cinder View Post
              1st Edition Requiem was not bad in the slightest, especially as time went on and the writers experimented more. 2nd Edition Requiem, by virtue of having Masquerade as well, really was reborn into its own dark beast and is just gorgeous. Different, not necessarily better for everyone, but from an objective standpoint gained a lot from not having to be Masquerade "replacement".
              I think the problem was, the first editions of the NWoD big three defined themselves by what they didn't want to be, what elements they wanted to exclude from the ones which were signature to oWoD, while still keeping as much of it as possible and the end result felt hollow indeed, for a lot of us and that was in top of all the other personal preferences in backstory, scope, thematic elements, cosmology, etc. The 2es in comparison started with asking the question of what they want to be, and be about and it did them good.



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              • #52
                Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                If you're frustrated that Requiem doesn't get as much books as Masquerade
                I don't believe that something being popular makes it good. I want to make that my preface.

                With that said, Requiem failed (or has failed thus far) to attract a large fanbase. All it takes is to compare the number of posts and topics between forums; popularity is in a whole other ballpark. For many, Requiem is that weird sorta-Masquerade which just feels Wrong. These aren't people who grew up with VtM. These are people who found out about VtM a few months ago and happened upon VtR while hopping around on Wikis.

                If Requiem fans are disappointed that their game-line isn't being lavished with attention, new books, updates, loving investigation of the elements they love... the only thing they can blame is that Requiem simply doesn't have enough popularity to drive this level of attention from the developers. There is enough interest in VtM to spawn a spinoff to a spinoff; V20 Dark Ages Companion. You know what that book devotes time to? The Ramanga (enemies of the Lasombra, Laibon who arose separately from them but still have control of the shadows thanks to a common force in their creation), and how their niche Path of Morality makes their version of Obtenebration more potent, along with a list of Combination Disciplines unique to their minute bloodline which is extinct in Modern Nights. I'm not saying this to show off how lucky VtM fans are (although we undoubtedly are), I'm saying this to demonstrate how huge the gap is here. Requiem fans are wishing they'd get more books about quite broad topics in their setting, there is so much ground left to cover. Masquerade fans are getting the in-depth politics and morality of an extinct group of Not-Lasombra.

                Lore of the Bloodlines devotes time to Kiasyd cocktails. They're glorious and lovingly written, but it's telling. The Masquerade setting has been dutifully explored and pushed pretty far; there's still room of course (lots of history to fill, lots of domains to explore, lots of stories to write; how about a book just about Abominations? You know people would buy it; I would. I'd write that if I had the chance) but it's gotten plenty of attention. It goes without saying that Requiem fans feel annoyed or even angered by books like Lore of the Clans/Bloodlines, even if they don't really understand why.
                Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-07-2017, 07:30 PM.

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                • #53
                  People, I assure Requiem stands better now than ever, has a respectable fanbase and does not get less books than any White Wolf or Onyx Path gameline at the moment. The sky is not falling for anyone
                  Last edited by Cinder; 08-07-2017, 07:43 PM.


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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                    If Requiem fans are disappointed that their game-line isn't being lavished with attention, new books, updates, loving investigation of the elements they love... the only thing they can blame is that Requiem simply doesn't have enough popularity to drive this level of attention from the developers.
                    I'm not angry that Masquerade is getting more attention, hell I was a Masquerade fan before Requiem, but I just can't help but think that V20 was unnecessary or at least done badly. If V20 offered interesting content and good art (not that photomanip crap) I'd throw away Requiem in a heartbeat. But, dude, I mean look at the cover of Lore of the Clans, what the hell is THAT? If it's anything close to Revised in terms of QUALITY I'd have another opinion entirely.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                      Because V20 didn't have room for a total in-depth explanation of the titles in the two major sects. How does a Primogen compare to a Priscus? V20 Companion is useful if you need an answer to that.
                      Book had some good stuff, but not the place where V20 started to really shin, IMO. It was really a "what got cut out" compendium.

                      Anarchs Unbound, for me, is an objective improvement on past writings on the Anarchs since it leaves so much room for great stories. I've built my entire Chronicle off of that book, along with Lore of the Clans, Lore of the Bloodlines and V20 itself. One of my players is a veteran and she says she's never had so much fun, so obviously something has gone right.

                      I suggest you read Anarchs Unbound, carefully. Our narrator is a Ventrue who despises the way his Clan has impacted him. How others censor themselves around him and defer to him; even Anarchs treat him like he has some natural affinity for authority, so he makes efforts to avoid the topic of lineage. The book is wonderful in that it addresses the successes and the tragic failures of the Anarchs. How they often end up degenerating into turf warfare, or resorting to becoming Soft Camarilla. How they espouse a rejection of Clan limitations, but in the end revert to old bigotries.
                      Ah, yes, now, we're talking! I love that book with all my withered heart! Great narration, wonderful ideas, sincerely, my favorite faction book I read so far. I also loved how it advanced the metaplot (yes, it did that!). I'm currently reading the Revised Guide to the Anarchs and yes, in some cases, it has more stuff, but still, I think Anarchs Unbound is the better Anarch book. I really hope WW will build on its ideas and plot with V5 (the edition-comparing document they released seem to suggesting that).

                      I suggest your read the Tzimisce chapter of Lore of the Clans. Our narrator is a Fiend who is inscribing a tapestry of history in the flesh of a captured person. They narrate the history of the Clan, from its nascence to the origin of the Sabbat, up to modern nights. Their description of Kupala's Night is one of the most wonderful things I've ever read. They actually justify the Tzimisce discipline spread in a way that feels... right. They conjure up an image of the Clan that elevates it far beyond the stock villains that many STs bastardize them as, far beyond "ooh have flesh powers am so creepy", which is the only outing they seemed to get in earlier editions. This chapter gives the word Tzimisce some weight, and makes the terror that comes with it feel earned.
                      Lore of the Clans has some really neat stuff too and generally, I liked the writing, but it's a bit like the corebook, it's a compendium. great for updating and for new players, but the clan books naturally have much more info in them. but that's okay, that was exactly the goal of the book and it succeeded in it.

                      I suggest you read Hunters Hunted ll. The little bit of fiction at the end of the chapter on the Order of St Leopold? It made me cry. I won't spoil it here, but it was breathtaking. It expanded what it meant to be a Hunter. They're not all seeking revenge. Some are adrenaline junkies. Some are the type of privileged moron who shoots endangered animals. Something that hit me hard is how it describes Hunters killing eachother; their paranoia and fear of Vampires leads to them destroying themselves, their enemy wins without even knowing they ever existed. It is a genuine undeniable improvement to its predecessor.
                      Now, I didn't read HtH 1 so far, but the V20 version was another high point in writing for the V20 line, IMO. Just like the anarch book, tons of stuff, story, good writing.

                      I often see an empty platitude being tossed around; V20 is nice, but Revised really got the right feel. V20 is neat and accessible, Revised is dirty and raw and has soul. Now this is a matter of opinion, however I feel that the assertion is unfounded. V20 has some incredibly well-written fluff, and the small bits of fiction delivered in the text can be exceptional. Maybe if they'd made the books black and white and kept an Edgy art-style the average perception would be different ;-)
                      You know, I could understand the opinion you're arguing with here. I'm somewhat thinking the same. Yes, part of it (for me) is the "edgy-artsy" b&w visual style of the books, which I miss dearly. But that's not the only thing. The former books indeed had more... Attitude to them. More rashness and it felt appropriate for the setting's mood. The 20th books (well, except for the M20 line) are more clinical, more matter-of-fact and less passionate, IMO. Not boring, far from it, but a "cleaner, neater" style of writing (which was, interestingly more specific for the NWoD 1e books too). Of course it's a personal preference which one somebody likes better.


                      With that said, Requiem failed (or has failed thus far) to attract a large fanbase. All it takes is to compare the number of posts and topics between forums; popularity is in a whole other ballpark. For many, Requiem is that weird sorta-Masquerade which just feels Wrong. These aren't people who grew up with VtM. These are people who found out about VtM a few months ago and happened upon VtR while hopping around on Wikis.

                      If Requiem fans are disappointed that their game-line isn't being lavished with attention, new books, updates, loving investigation of the elements they love... the only thing they can blame is that Requiem simply doesn't have enough popularity to drive this level of attention from the developers. There is enough interest in VtM to spawn a spinoff to a spinoff; V20 Dark Ages Companion. You know what that book devotes time to? The Ramanga (enemies of the Lasombra, Laibon who arose separately from them but still have control of the shadows thanks to a common force in their creation), and how their niche Path of Morality makes their version of Obtenebration more potent, along with a list of Combination Disciplines unique to their minute bloodline which is extinct in Modern Nights. I'm not saying this to show off how lucky VtM fans are (although we undoubtedly are), I'm saying this to demonstrate how huge the gap is here. Requiem fans are wishing they'd get more books about quite broad topics in their setting, there is so much ground left to cover. Masquerade fans are getting the in-depth politics and morality of an extinct group of Not-Lasombra.
                      My interpretation of the situation is, that Requiem never attracted as much attention and built up as big a fanbase as Masquerade precisely because of the reasons its fans tend to like it better (and those are the same reasons why WW chose VtM for their future products - at least partially). It doesn't make it worse, not at all, but it's a thing. It's the same why Forgotten realms has immensely more fans than Greyhawk or Eberron. Or why people love Shadowrun, or SW, or Warhammer. Not just the metaplot, but also the detailed backstory, the elaborated setting with its lot of goings-on, the established characters all that things which CofD fans seem to find stifling, but in general tend to suck people in.
                      Last edited by PMárk; 08-07-2017, 08:22 PM.


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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                        I often see an empty platitude being tossed around; V20 is nice, but Revised really got the right feel. V20 is neat and accessible, Revised is dirty and raw and has soul. Now this is a matter of opinion, however I feel that the assertion is unfounded. V20 has some incredibly well-written fluff, and the small bits of fiction delivered in the text can be exceptional. Maybe if they'd made the books black and white and kept an Edgy art-style the average perception would be different ;-)
                        I admit that the fiction parts of V20 are passable, but the important parts, ie. clan descriptions are either copy-pasted from Revised or made slightly worse by unintentional flanderizing. I don't like that all clan quotes come down to petty insults and that everyone drops f-bombs and the like, just because we can these days. There simply was a lot of subtlety lost, can't deny it (mostly because you had to sneak certain stuff past censors back then and if someone said fuck, it wasn't a casual thing). If you want a proof, just put the clan pictures next to the ones that inspired them and you can see which parts got stressed and which ones got lost in time. (you can also smell which clans the writers liked and which they didn't. Again: Revised wasn't perfect. Far from it. But it felt as if all clans were much better rounded and less stereotypie. Again: Ventrue being petty bullies who wear crowns and scepters, Malks so "crazy", they can't even hold a haven. It's just a bit more cartoony while trying to be more "real" with the new art-style (which is in colour and that is an atrocity. The Hague will hear of it!).
                        And I will freely admit that I'm biased as heck.
                        Last edited by Davesknd; 08-07-2017, 08:05 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Oh and also, I must mention that I always felt that WoD in general is more connected to the real world (which in turn makes people more likely to connect with it easily), while the CofD games are more just using it for background (and I think it was started like that, to avoid "offensive and stereotypical" stuff, which brings us back to the issue of the NWoD 1es' self-definition), while making the supernatural stuff more apart. Credit where credit's due, with the Dark Eras books it seems to start changing a bit.

                          Then there is the problem of how much languages WoD got translated while NWoD didn't (which, I assume wasn't a design choice, but a sad result of circumstances) and how WoD had things like novels (which was, because for those you had to have some kind of fixed background and signature characters), which helped sucking in people. Honestly, I'm still sad the NWoD novel lines stopped in their infancy, I quite liked Three Shades of Night.
                          Last edited by PMárk; 08-07-2017, 08:19 PM.


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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                            I'm not angry that Masquerade is getting more attention, hell I was a Masquerade fan before Requiem, but I just can't help but think that V20 was unnecessary or at least done badly. If V20 offered interesting content and good art (not that photomanip crap) I'd throw away Requiem in a heartbeat. But, dude, I mean look at the cover of Lore of the Clans, what the hell is THAT? If it's anything close to Revised in terms of QUALITY I'd have another opinion entirely.

                            Numbers, mate. Numbers. They have been posted. V20 outsells Requiem 2:1 and you still keep asking what's the need? Because V20 has TWICE the people interested in spending money than Requiem. And better not compare with previous editions, because 1st and 2nd Ed of Masquerade built a whole company from the ground and Requiem made it plunge to the point of selling/trespassing.

                            I don't know why you are still arguing, numbers are there, even reboot books that V20 are, outsell anything from the Chronicles of Darkness. So yes, they are much necessary and as I pointed out, better setting, better rules (at least I don't have to have Wits Composure maxed in every character regardless of concept because you roll it twice as much than any other combo) and the better immersion.

                            Your opinion is a minority, a HUGE minority. You should reconsider stating "V20 wasn't necessary." or that "V20 is bad" because most of people, most of players, most of everyone that spends money on books disagrees with you. You are entitled to your opinion which must be respected, but stop trying to make a unique opinion pass as a general consensus. That kind imperative statements is exactly what baits flame wars. Especially in written language where everything sounds more aggressive than it's meant...

                            I will agree only on one thing, the V20 line although having and amazing look has some of the worst art I've every seen in RPG. But we're still talking RPG here, and you biggest beef with Lore of the Clans is the cover? Seriously? What's important is the text, that's what makes and breaks a RPG, not the art. Everything loves good art especially on an expensive book, but it's the least important aspect of a RPG book. Everything else is a breath of fresh air and the best thing to happen to WW/OPP since VtM Revised.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
                              I'm not angry that Masquerade is getting more attention, hell I was a Masquerade fan before Requiem, but I just can't help but think that V20 was unnecessary or at least done badly. If V20 offered interesting content and good art (not that photomanip crap) I'd throw away Requiem in a heartbeat. But, dude, I mean look at the cover of Lore of the Clans, what the hell is THAT? If it's anything close to Revised in terms of QUALITY I'd have another opinion entirely.
                              Is true, requiem would never do that kind of "photomanip crap" never ever.......

                              http://theonyxpath.com/wp-content/up.../06/Front3.jpg

                              ​.....Oh wait.....

                              Originally posted by Erinýes View Post
                              I will agree only on one thing, the V20 line although having and amazing look has some of the worst art I've every seen in RPG. But we're still talking RPG here, and you biggest beef with Lore of the Clans is the cover? Seriously? What's important is the text, that's what makes and breaks a RPG, not the art. Everything loves good art especially on an expensive book, but it's the least important aspect of a RPG book. Everything else is a breath of fresh air and the best thing to happen to WW/OPP since VtM Revised.
                              Art does play an important part, i would never had given an opportunity to neither Awakening (to my frustrating dismay) and Apocalypse 20th if it wasnt for the art (Ron spencer not included). However as bad as a cover with Dracula and company is, it isnt even as bad as The Pack cover.....my god is this cover horrible. Worst part is that i know that with a good "inker/colorist" Leblanc can do good art (when someone fix the abominations he makes) but this?

                              https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net...20160511204407

                              This....words fails me to explain how this cover is awful. I have an ear on the ground on the indie comic scene and i have seen some very raw things and that cover belongs to it.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
                                I'm not angry that Masquerade is getting more attention, hell I was a Masquerade fan before Requiem, but I just can't help but think that V20 was unnecessary or at least done badly. If V20 offered interesting content and good art (not that photomanip crap) I'd throw away Requiem in a heartbeat. But, dude, I mean look at the cover of Lore of the Clans, what the hell is THAT? If it's anything close to Revised in terms of QUALITY I'd have another opinion entirely.
                                And there it is. Look, I get that art is important to you in your game books. I get that you don't like photo manipulation art. But at this point, the fly is in the soup. Photo manipulation art is part of the aesthetic of both WoD and CofD, you either need to get used to it or accept that it has ruined the games for you.


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