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  • #76
    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
    I memorized practically everything; from the stereotypes (which are not flanderized; they're stereotypes, they're meant to be, well, stereotypical) to the rules. After that I read every V20-related book as it came out, and I read some of the old stuff too (Succubus Club, Time of Thin Blood)... the good books from the old line just feel like V20 to me to be honest. Secrets of the Dark Mother could have come out yesterday really, and same goes for all of the competent books they've done over the years.
    Flanderization is when certian traits of a character (or in this case clan) are overstated in every incanation ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...Flanderization ).
    And you can't deny that this has happened. I am not mad or anything, it was inevitable, seeing how long it's been since the last edition and how many different writers were involved. If you want an example, compare these quotes:

    Revised Ventrue: "The guidance of the Damned is my burden to bear, not yours. You would do well, however, to ask yourself whenever your unlife is of benefit to the Children of Caine, or a detriment. I have already made my judgement."
    V20 Ventrue: "There is no shame to bending the knee to one such as myself, so pay your fucking tribute before I lose my temper."

    Toreador Stereotype of Ventrue, Revised: "Every masterwork must have it's frame and every bust must have it's pillar. The Ventrue understand and they perform their functions admirably."
    Ventrue Stereotype of Toreador Revised: "Truly, their great passion must be a curse, for Kindred lack the ability to create what they may only impotently observe."

    Toreador Stereotype of Ventrue V20: "Why are older brothers always such corpulent bullies?"
    Ventrue Stereotype of Toreador V20: "For every king there is a queen, and there are a lot of queens among the ranks of the Rose Clan."

    I use the Ventrue because they had the biggest leap, going from genteel, machiavellian but self-sacrificing keepers of stability to rather petty tyrants (nice homophobia by the way... someone really didn't like this clan).
    And again, I'm not saying that this is ultimately a "bad" thing. Ned Flanders became a lot funnier when it happened to him, but if you are as familiar with the clanbooks and the behind-the-curtain aspects of the old clans, there have been losses in nuance.

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    • #77
      I just wish V20 was more like DaV20. I wasn't a fan of removing all Metaplot past 2nd ed... If it wasn't released first and they saw how the others did it, I would have wished they did it like Mage, so showing a setting with metaplot, with some metaplot, and classic mode. That way we can have interesting things like Gangrel becoming Independent and Assamite Schism.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
        I just wish V20 was more like DaV20. I wasn't a fan of removing all Metaplot past 2nd ed... If it wasn't released first and they saw how the others did it, I would have wished they did it like Mage, so showing a setting with metaplot, with some metaplot, and classic mode. That way we can have interesting things like Gangrel becoming Independent and Assamite Schism.
        The V20 books gave us all those options though. V20 mentions the Gangrel metaplot. Lore of the Clans mentions the Assamite metaplot. All of this information is available; Anarchs Unbound talks about all the possible outcomes of many different situations, from the fall of the Anarch Free State to the Shadow Curtain and the death of Baba Yaga.

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        • #79
          At least the thread is still civil

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

            And there it is. Look, I get that art is important to you in your game books. I get that you don't like photo manipulation art. But at this point, the fly is in the soup. Photo manipulation art is part of the aesthetic of both WoD and CofD, you either need to get used to it or accept that it has ruined the games for you.
            Dammit I loved this franchise : /

            Guess I'll have to rely on fan art from here on out

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            • #81
              Davesknd I actually think that all the writeups do a good job of flattering the clans.

              - The stereotypes of the other Clans are almost always antagonistic, yes, but "here's what I don't like about this clan" is a good spark for roleplay and ideas, it's drama. "Oh the Ventrue are super good leaders" tells us nothing but that Toreador are built into the establishment, something we already know from their writeup and the stuff about Harpies. "Oh the Toreador are cursed artists"; no shit sherlock. It's good if the stereotypes give us something beyond "[Clan I'm talking about] is like [Basic Concept of Clan I'm talking about]", which is all I can see pre-V20. At least in V20 they're layering insults on top of the basic concepts to give you an idea of *how* they feel about the obvious shit they're talking about.

              - The Quotes are giving you a taste of the clan, and a moody demanding Ventrue is as reflective of the Clan as one who is calm and collected. They aren't all Machiavelli. And if you look beyond the quotes at the top of the page, the writeups do a good job of flattering the clan whilst also pointing out their problems. The Ventrue have problems with scheming and infighting, but give them an outside threat and they come together very effectively. Brujah are passionate and powerful but as a group can struggle with bringing about effective change in the long run. Taking the quotes, the views of others, other's views of them AND the writeups altogether (and ESPECIALLY if you count the Lore of the Clans chapters but that's asking a lot) gives you a very balanced and fair view of the Clans, IMO.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Lys View Post
                It's funny, the photo manipulation full page spreads in Vampire the Masquerade 20th Anniversary edition, the ones recycled for the Lore of the Clans cover, are to my mind easily the best art ever published for setting. There is simply no illustration out there that can better encapsulate for me the look of a Toreador, Malkavian, Giovanni, or Tzimisce like this; no other pictures that make me want to play them just by looking at them. They have this gothic horror aesthetic that really appeals to me, because i always liked Vampire best when it focused on its Victorian roots. That probably why i prefer the Dark Ages setting over the default one, it dumps the punk and goes full on gothic. So yeah, as far as i'm concerned the aesthetic communicated by that art is Vampire at its best. That's not to say V20 doesn't have bad art though, the illustrations for the two-page clan splats range from mediocre to terrible, and i strongly dislike them.
                Honestly? Because if I wanted to show an elegant Toreador in a red dress I'd give something like this.

                Now look at THIS, Space Needle taken over by the Sabbat. THIS is the World of Darkness. This perfectly illustrates the atmosphere that makes us WANT to play the game.

                What pains me is that the latter is fan art, it didn't even make it anywhere close to a book.
                Last edited by Shawarbaaz; 08-08-2017, 06:22 AM.

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                • #83
                  I'm personally a fan of photomanipulation, as well as the older drawings. My only problem with V20 and DAV20 is the Salubri; they always look a bit uncanny for me personally. I'd've circumvented it by showing a sneaky Salubri who is hiding their eye somehow, or just ret-conned the Salubri in V20 to have metaphysical Eyes in the Auras, not literally growing out of their forehead.

                  Now photomanipulation done BADLY is terrible. Look at the cover of Dark Age: Fae. Ugh.
                  Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-08-2017, 07:00 AM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Lys View Post
                    It's funny, the photo manipulation full page spreads in Vampire the Masquerade 20th Anniversary edition, the ones recycled for the Lore of the Clans cover, are to my mind easily the best art ever published for setting. There is simply no illustration out there that can better encapsulate for me the look of a Toreador, Malkavian, Giovanni, or Tzimisce like this; no other pictures that make me want to play them just by looking at them. They have this gothic horror aesthetic that really appeals to me, because i always liked Vampire best when it focused on its Victorian roots. That probably why i prefer the Dark Ages setting over the default one, it dumps the punk and goes full on gothic. So yeah, as far as i'm concerned the aesthetic communicated by that art is Vampire at its best. That's not to say V20 doesn't have bad art though, the illustrations for the two-page clan splats range from mediocre to terrible, and i strongly dislike them.
                    See I couldn't agree more. They're lovely representations of the clans, very stylish. For me they're nice because they look "realistic" but also unreal. These look like immortal blood-monsters to me.

                    The photo-manip in Lore of the Clans and Lore of the Bloodlines is lovely. Personally I think they're timeless. The Salubri is the only problem for me; she falls flat. Otherwise they're nice.

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                    • #85
                      11twiggins Petty bickering only tells us that all clans are apparently 6 years old. It's more about how it's said than what is said. Ventrue and genteel, Toreador use metaphors, Brujah cuss in Revised. In V20 all the stereotypes do is complain about each other as if this was playschool. I guess it's a matter of taste, but I dislike where the direction has gone with most of them. (Also: Toreador and Ventrue are probably the two clans with the most amiable connection. It seems really out of character for them to insult each other like that)
                      And I disagree about Lore of the Clans. It left out a lot of the more humanizing parts and traditions of the different clans. Really not a fan of it. But again: I'm really not a fan of V20 in general. Whoever came up with "Vampires cum blood" needs a good quartering...

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Davesknd View Post
                        Whoever came up with "Vampires cum blood" needs a good quartering...
                        "Vampires cum blood" is a pretty gross simplification. Vampires don't tend to have sex as frequently as humans. Their existence is sensual, not sexual. They can use sex as a lure for feeding, and they can use their genitalia if they want to, it's just not AS enjoyable as when they were alive, and pales in comparison to feeding.

                        If a Vampire decides to push themselves through sex to its logical conclusion, all they can do is spend blood to imitate human traits. Like when a Vampire imitates blushed cheeks, they must use blood to form their imitation, and blood is their only real option.

                        So yes, if you boil it down to the essentials and deliberately ignore what the writers are going for you can say "V20 Vampires cum blood haha" but the intention is thus:

                        - Feeding is a sexual metaphor, so sex matters both more and less to Vampires. It's something they can't fully enjoy but many are still obsessed with it in one way or another.

                        - Vampires aren't human anymore and can't fully enjoy sex the way humans do; this is in line with not enjoying food and drink... pleasures of the flesh are just less appeasing on a purely physical level, however mental nourishment is just as great. While your average human will want someone to go down on them to achieve base pleasure, your average Vampire isn't getting much from the act, it's all about the psychological elements. This is good since it means YOUR Vampire can be as sexual or asexual as you wish, it leaves a lot of justification to go either way. Your Harpy can be sexually dead, or lust after one of the PC's ghouls because of their exquisite wrists/neck/breasts/muscles, it depends on what suits your story and the tone you're going for. Maybe the Giovanni antagonist has a weakness for skinny guys who remind them of a distant cousin that died in the 80s, or perhaps they don't have any sexual appetites after 50 years of unlife. It's up to you.

                        - Vampires aren't human anymore, and so tears and the products of sex are going to be sanguine. That's just a fact. It's messy and unpleasant, but it almost never comes up. Fact is that there is no "climax" for Vampires, it's an imitation, and it's only happening because a Neonate (typically) feels like they SHOULD climax at the end of sex and they're pushing for it. Basically blood coming out of your urethra is something that is possible if you're a Vampire, but it's like Vampires vomiting when they eat food; it's disgusting, but it's only happening because you're effectively misusing the anatomy at your disposal.
                        Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-08-2017, 07:40 AM.

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                        • #87
                          11twiggins
                          ​No, it comes down to "Vampires cum blood". That's the lore and it doesn't matter how you work around it, if a Vampire comes to climax (which is a change I really don't like. Vampires shouldn't enjoy sex. Touching and sensuality, yes, but the visceral feeling of reproduction are gone), they cum blood. They could have just let this out and kept it vague like the eye-fluid, the saliva or where the fangs retract to, but the book is very clear and graphic about it. It is really that idiotic. And no, it makes no sense either that tears are bloody. Tears are physically pressed out of the blood-serum in the tear glands. In order to make them sanguine, you'd have to completely rewire the system up there and then you'd have constant red-eye.
                          Leave it vague or you look like a dolt and there, they went for the latter.
                          And what you said about sensuality... that is nice and would be very good... if it was in V20 like that. But it isn't. Crap like this is: "We’re dead, sexy things and we’ll never grow old, and we have a license from our maker to indulge our every erotic urge"
                          I'm glad that you kinda see it like me (Vampires not enjoying it beyond the feeling of safety and closeness and the like) But I think that the whole "capable to enjoy sex" ruins a lot of the alienation from your humanity. You are not supposed to get solace from an act of closeness. The beast is a creature of solitude and the only true joys come from it (feeding, rush of frenzy, diablerie etc). Just being capable of getting this kind of visceral joy from other places kinda beat the point if you ask me.

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                          • #88
                            Davesknd I feel like you've misread V20's take on sex; it's not saying that Vampires get incredibly powerful sexual thrills, it emphasises the fact that the enjoyment is dampened (if not non-existent) and that it is VERY weak when compared to the Kiss. This means that Vampires have sex for sentimental or social reasons, or to fulfill mental and emotional needs.

                            Vampires don't naturally come to climax from my reading, they're deliberately doing it much as when you blood pump or redden your face.

                            The "we're dead sexy things" quote is standard Toreador hedonism and always has been. VtM does devote some time to the idea of a "beautiful corpse", with the superficial elements of beauty being permanently and perfectly preserved. That's key to Vampire fiction; they're sexual beings, Dracula himself can be interpreted as an allegory for sexual infection, wanton lust and the Other as a potential seducer/rapist (with racist elements woven in, naturally, but it's not modern literature) and Vampires/Demons originally existed in many cultures to explain nocturnal sex and wet dreams. Vampiric lore is dripping in sexuality and has done for a long time (I literally know a guy doing a bloody PhD in Lesbianism, feminine sexuality and Vampires); you want them to be planks of wood in the sack? V20 runs a fine line and does it well; Vampires aren't totally numb to sexual pleasure but it's very weak compared to their time as a human. Vampires are more sensual than sexual (I think V20 says this verbatim).

                            As for the blood thing, most Vampires won't ever even experience it. The book is clear on "climax" being something that doesn't apply to Vampires.

                            My take, and V20's take, is that if a Vampire can enjoy a kiss or massage they should get at least SOME pleasure from intercourse. It's going to be mildly disappointing compared to what they remember, but combined with the ever-tempting kiss it can be incredible.
                            Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-08-2017, 08:08 AM.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post
                              Well I do. I think it's just beating the undead horse by this point. The time and effort spent making Anarchs XIIV and whatnot should've instead go to Requiem, it deserves all the love it could get. But that's just me.

                              Do you think V20 serves any purpose other than exploiting the 90's nostalgia?


                              For people like me who arrived 20 years late to the party and don't have the budget to buy shit loads of expanded material books?

                              Yes, having every rule, discipline, spell, clan and bloodline placed into a single book was a godsend on their part. And I hope that other splats in the classic World of Darkness get the same treatment, assuming they haven't already.

                              Last edited by Nyrufa; 08-08-2017, 08:37 AM.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                                That way we can have interesting things like Gangrel becoming Independent and Assamite Schism.
                                That, as with most things, is a matter of opinion. I for one do not agree with the Gangrel going independent and the Assamite schism makes even less sense. For me it breaks the setting. Therefore it's smart of V20 mentioning those things as plot hooks for you to use in your games but not forcing them into the Metaplot.

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