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Do you wish V20 never happened?

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  • #91
    To tell you the truth, I'm neutral towards V20.


    See my splat, Angel: The Revelation (With a MUCH better link): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...qUnP1fcl-0/pub

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    • #92
      Would you guys consider Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines to follow the V20 game edition? I'm actually not that familiar with the feel/mechanics of earlier editions since VtM:B was my first ever exposure to the World of Darkness a few years back. It set me on a fierce, all-consuming binge of V20 and the Vampire metaplot/potential metaplots, and the rest of oWoD and nWoD from there.

      Personally, between VtM and VtR, I am in team VtM all the way. VtR never captured me much at all, while VtM held me hostage from day one.


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      • #93
        Oh, only just remembered something important;

        When I read through 1st Edition, the Brujah had some interesting stereotypes:

        - Something about pushing the Toreador to their knees so they can make their mouths useful for once. Hurray for rapey overtones with a hint of homophobia!

        - Something about the Tremere being DnD nerds who got embraced and brought their magic missiles with them.

        So I suppose the writer of 1st Edition hated the Brujah? No, no they didn't. The Stereotypical Brujah presented in 1st Edition is a bit of an angry jerk, and the Stereotypical Ventrue presented in V20 is a bit of an authoritarian jerk, but the writeups themselves don't cement this and leave all the room you need to expand. They're stereotypes. They're not the whole story, and they're just giving you a flavour.

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        • #94
          My reading of V20, the taking on the features of human beings is accomplished by Kindred spending blood pool to synthesize the required fluids (transforming blood into saliva, sweat, tears, etc), not that Kindred leak blood all over the place (not only is that more gross than I am willing to contemplate, it would also make it nearly impossible for the Masquerade to function if Kindred regularly bled from every orifice). Now, I know that the fluff states that Kindred leak blood from every orifice (and that blood eventually replaces all of the bodily fluids), but I ignore the fluff because there are no game mechanics to support it (for example, old blood stinks and attracts flies, so every Kindred should smell worse than an open grave and be surrounded by a swarm of flies if they leaked blood from every orifice, which would give them a hefty social penalty when interacting with humans).

          I think that blood replacing other bodily fluids should be seen as more a reflection of low Humanity/low Path Kindred, as Kindred with low morality do not bother using their ability to synthesize other bodily fluids from blood because they have stopped caring about their appearance. In order to reflect that, I think that Kindred should have Humanity/Path function as their social dice pool maximum when interacting with mortal human beings except when it comes to Disciplines and Intimidation. Low Humanity/low Path scores would therefore incorporate all of the nastiness that occurs when Kindred are not human or disciplined enough to take care of their appearance.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

            See I couldn't agree more. They're lovely representations of the clans, very stylish. For me they're nice because they look "realistic" but also unreal. These look like immortal blood-monsters to me.

            The photo-manip in Lore of the Clans and Lore of the Bloodlines is lovely. Personally I think they're timeless. The Salubri is the only problem for me; she falls flat. Otherwise they're nice.
            In my opinion they are tasteless and cheap. I like to say that art is in the eyes of the beholder however.

            if only we had a Toreador on this forum to ask her opinion of them.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by ErinĂ½es View Post

              That, as with most things, is a matter of opinion. I for one do not agree with the Gangrel going independent and the Assamite schism makes even less sense. For me it breaks the setting. Therefore it's smart of V20 mentioning those things as plot hooks for you to use in your games but not forcing them into the Metaplot.

              Almost all Anarchs having access to the Path of Technomancy and Thaumaturgy being common as cold also breaks the setting. Thaumaturgy should be the Tremere's top guarded secret, it is the REASON the Camarilla keeps them around and enduring heat from both Assamites AND Tzimisce.

              What happened to the Tremere's ritualistic purge of all non-Camarilla, Pyramid-adhering members?

              maybe this is one of the good things about V20's open-ended approach, but then again they are the ones who brought these ideas to the table in the first place, thus encouraging it.
              Last edited by Shawarbaaz; 08-08-2017, 10:25 AM.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                Yes, having every rule, discipline, spell, clan and bloodline placed into a single book was a godsend on their part.
                Where's my Nihilistics? (unless it's in Bloodlines, but in V20 Nagaraja got Necromancy)


                Ortam + Malkavia makes a Requiem fun.
                Posts in this colour are Persuasion.
                Posts in this colour are Seduction.
                Posts in this colour are Intimidation.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by solomon birch View Post

                  Where's my Nihilistics? (unless it's in Bloodlines, but in V20 Nagaraja got Necromancy)
                  Necromancy fits the Nagaraja better, why do they get 4 Disciplines? It's not fair haha

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                  • #99
                    They used to have Nihilistics. I like Nihilistics. Capps had Mortis, and V20 gives them Necromancy too (so what was the point in them bringing in the mortal Giovanni?). I love V20 being a giant book collecting 20 years of Vampire, but those two changes always bothered me, especially since Thanatosis still exists.


                    Ortam + Malkavia makes a Requiem fun.
                    Posts in this colour are Persuasion.
                    Posts in this colour are Seduction.
                    Posts in this colour are Intimidation.

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                    • Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post


                      Almost all Anarchs having access to the Path of Technomancy and Thaumaturgy being common as cold also breaks the setting. Thaumaturgy should be the Tremere's top guarded secret, it is the REASON the Camarilla keeps them around and enduring heat from both Assamites AND Tzimisce.

                      What happened to the Tremere's ritualistic purge of all non-Camarilla, Pyramid-adhering members?

                      maybe this is one of the good things about V20's open-ended approach, but then again they are the ones who brought these ideas to the table in the first place, thus encouraging it.
                      I've never bought that. Vampires are going to want to learn Thaumaturgy, and if the Tremere start killing other clans for learning it, the Tremere are going to destroyed by the other clans. I have no problem with the Tremere being the best at it because they devote themselves to it so much, but the idea that the Tremere could actually kill non-clan-members who learn it without provoking a war they would lose horribly has never been something I accepted. It reeks of kludge.

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                      • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

                        I've never bought that. Vampires are going to want to learn Thaumaturgy, and if the Tremere start killing other clans for learning it, the Tremere are going to destroyed by the other clans. I have no problem with the Tremere being the best at it because they devote themselves to it so much, but the idea that the Tremere could actually kill non-clan-members who learn it without provoking a war they would lose horribly has never been something I accepted. It reeks of kludge.
                        Exactly. The Tremere hold honorary status for the following reasons:

                        - "Atheist" blood magic that any educated person can learn. Other types of Blood Magic come with baggage, whether that be foreign cultures, rare ingredients, taint from supernatural beings that go beyond your understanding, requisite knowledges that make it the preserve of small groups (Theology for Sadhanna, as an example)... I could go on.

                        - The widest selection of Paths and Rituals out of any group. The sheer utility of many of the simple rituals they possess that others didn't. And in the Dark Ages, Weather control and travelling faster (the Path that sped up the movement of armies and caravans) could win wars easily.

                        - The most organized collection of Blood Mages in existence.

                        - State-Approved Blood Magic; people don't trust Anarch Sorcery, or Assamite Sorcery, or weird magics that could be infernal. People like what they know, and the Tremere are heavily invested in keeping things that way and quashing the competition. They won't KILL the Old Skool witch who offers to ward people's havens at half their price, but if she just happened to be found with infernal texts stuffed all around her basement...

                        - Rigorous training regimes and an organization devoted to teaching Apprentices to their maximum potential.

                        - That Level 2 Blood Bond they all have to the Clan itself. Yeah.

                        But sure, the existence of a few hundred Anarchs who have Mercury and Focused Mind because of their Yoga-based Blood Magic are going to RUIN the Tremere...

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                        • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                          "Vampires cum blood" is a pretty gross simplification. Vampires don't tend to have sex as frequently as humans. Their existence is sensual, not sexual. They can use sex as a lure for feeding, and they can use their genitalia if they want to, it's just not AS enjoyable as when they were alive, and pales in comparison to feeding.

                          If a Vampire decides to push themselves through sex to its logical conclusion, all they can do is spend blood to imitate human traits. Like when a Vampire imitates blushed cheeks, they must use blood to form their imitation, and blood is their only real option.

                          So yes, if you boil it down to the essentials and deliberately ignore what the writers are going for you can say "V20 Vampires cum blood haha" but the intention is thus:

                          - Feeding is a sexual metaphor, so sex matters both more and less to Vampires. It's something they can't fully enjoy but many are still obsessed with it in one way or another.

                          - Vampires aren't human anymore and can't fully enjoy sex the way humans do; this is in line with not enjoying food and drink... pleasures of the flesh are just less appeasing on a purely physical level, however mental nourishment is just as great. While your average human will want someone to go down on them to achieve base pleasure, your average Vampire isn't getting much from the act, it's all about the psychological elements. This is good since it means YOUR Vampire can be as sexual or asexual as you wish, it leaves a lot of justification to go either way. Your Harpy can be sexually dead, or lust after one of the PC's ghouls because of their exquisite wrists/neck/breasts/muscles, it depends on what suits your story and the tone you're going for. Maybe the Giovanni antagonist has a weakness for skinny guys who remind them of a distant cousin that died in the 80s, or perhaps they don't have any sexual appetites after 50 years of unlife. It's up to you.

                          - Vampires aren't human anymore, and so tears and the products of sex are going to be sanguine. That's just a fact. It's messy and unpleasant, but it almost never comes up. Fact is that there is no "climax" for Vampires, it's an imitation, and it's only happening because a Neonate (typically) feels like they SHOULD climax at the end of sex and they're pushing for it. Basically blood coming out of your urethra is something that is possible if you're a Vampire, but it's like Vampires vomiting when they eat food; it's disgusting, but it's only happening because you're effectively misusing the anatomy at your disposal.
                          Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                          As for the blood thing, most Vampires won't ever even experience it. The book is clear on "climax" being something that doesn't apply to Vampires.
                          I can't find anything in V20 that supports the idea that:

                          * Sex for vampires doesn't involve a climax
                          * That sex is only imitation

                          What V20 does say is that "sex is great" for vampires (page 9).

                          I mean, it's fine that you have your own take on how this works, but it's not really supported by RAW. That is, the book is not at all clear on "climax" being something that doesn't apply to vampires.
                          Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 08-08-2017, 01:46 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post
                            Lets see:
                            1. Breathed life into what was a dead game for close to a decade
                            2. Got many, many people back into the hobby, and introduced it to new players with a relatively hand omnibus edition
                            3. Led to the development of both metaplot and mechanics in a more streamlined and up-to-date way than the old editions
                            4. Before the Pdox takeover, paved the way for the OPP version of 5th Edition


                            What low-mental-statted character does not think that V20 was a good idea? X20 in general was a good idea.

                            I wish this thread would be chopped with a machete after this comment.

                            The answer is NO. V20, in part, helped lead to YEARS worth of new material for the World of Darkness.

                            Requiem is...fine. But no thanks.


                            PENTEX SUCKS.

                            I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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                            • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                              Oh, only just remembered something important;

                              When I read through 1st Edition, the Brujah had some interesting stereotypes:

                              - Something about pushing the Toreador to their knees so they can make their mouths useful for once. Hurray for rapey overtones with a hint of homophobia!

                              - Something about the Tremere being DnD nerds who got embraced and brought their magic missiles with them.

                              So I suppose the writer of 1st Edition hated the Brujah? No, no they didn't. The Stereotypical Brujah presented in 1st Edition is a bit of an angry jerk, and the Stereotypical Ventrue presented in V20 is a bit of an authoritarian jerk, but the writeups themselves don't cement this and leave all the room you need to expand. They're stereotypes. They're not the whole story, and they're just giving you a flavour.

                              You are entirely right. Those are shit. Glad that I didn't play 1st Ed, cause that would have kept me away.

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                              • Requiem is pretty great. V20 is pretty great. Why shouldn't the world have both?

                                Also, the statement earlier that disciplines in Requiem are weaker than Masquerade is not accurate. Perhaps in first edition, but not in second. They're actually notably stronger, with the probable exception of Celerity due to lack of extra actions.

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