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Do you wish V20 never happened?

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  • Guys... It's been thirteen damn years. Literally the entire time I've been playing White Wolf. I got into these games in the exact moment the transition was occurring and all the controversy that surrounded it. Once upon a time I loved talking shit on and complaining about the existence of Requiem, nowadays I spend a lot of time convincing people to actually try Requiem.

    They're both fine, guys. Can't we just enjoy playing games? I want to play games.

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    • Originally posted by solomon birch View Post

      Where's my Nihilistics? (unless it's in Bloodlines, but in V20 Nagaraja got Necromancy)
      ‚Äčit became a necromancy path

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      • Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post

        ‚Äčit became a necromancy path
        Yeah Nihilistics was basically made into the Vitreous Path. Wish they'd do the same with Thanatosis, to be honest.

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        • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
          Something about pushing the Toreador to their knees so they can make their mouths useful for once. Hurray for rapey overtones with a hint of homophobia!
          A game about immortal bloodsucking monsters in a world a million times more morally bankrupt than ours "Oh no, rape and homophobia!"

          Friend, I'm so gay it hurts, but I dont think centuries old Elders and even some freshly Embraced neonates would be averse to rape and homophobia.

          I'm totally for pro-gay and anti-rape characters forcing these kind of characters to bite the dirt though, a little justice doesn't hurt, even in this world.
          Last edited by Shawarbaaz; 08-08-2017, 03:42 PM.

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          • Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
            They're both fine, guys. Can't we just enjoy playing games? I want to play games.
            Overall, I have to agree with this.

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            • Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

              A game about immortal bloodsucking monsters in a world a million times more morally bankrupt than ours "Oh no, rape and homophobia!"

              Friend, I'm so gay it hurts, but if you think centuries old Elders and even some freshly Embraced neonates would be averse to rape and homophobia then you probably don't understand this game.

              I'm totally for pro-gay and anti-rape characters forcing these kind of characters to bite the dirt though, a little justice doesn't hurt, even in this world.
              - At what point did I say it was wrong for the books to contain such sentiment? I just think it's silly for the Brujah stereotype of Toreador as a clan to be grounded in homophobic beliefs; individual Brujah might be homophobic Alpha Males (TM) and the Rose Clan does seem to have had a propensity for embracing "companions" of the same gender throughout history, but it's silly to put it in the place they put it in 1st Edition. You're much better off putting that kind of line in a short fiction.

              - I don't understand the game. Greaaaaat. You're assuming a lot about me over an off-hand comment.

              - If it fits the story, sure.

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              • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

                I've never bought that. Vampires are going to want to learn Thaumaturgy, and if the Tremere start killing other clans for learning it, the Tremere are going to destroyed by the other clans. I have no problem with the Tremere being the best at it because they devote themselves to it so much, but the idea that the Tremere could actually kill non-clan-members who learn it without provoking a war they would lose horribly has never been something I accepted. It reeks of kludge.

                There are vampires who learn Thaumaturgy and get away with it. But now one in three Anarchs are Thaumaturgists, like why?

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                • Do I, as OP, have the previlege to end this thread?
                  Last edited by Shawarbaaz; 08-08-2017, 03:48 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by solomon birch View Post

                    Where's my Nihilistics? (unless it's in Bloodlines, but in V20 Nagaraja got Necromancy)


                    Not sure. I've been told V20 only leaves out like 4 Disciplines, or something like that. Otherwise, it's got all the tasty bits for us newcomers.

                    Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                    A game about immortal bloodsucking monsters in a world a million times more morally bankrupt than ours "Oh no, rape and homophobia!"
                    Do they include explicit racism in there, too? Or would that be pushing their luck?
                    Last edited by Nyrufa; 08-08-2017, 04:39 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post


                      Almost all Anarchs having access to the Path of Technomancy and Thaumaturgy being common as cold also breaks the setting. Thaumaturgy should be the Tremere's top guarded secret, it is the REASON the Camarilla keeps them around and enduring heat from both Assamites AND Tzimisce.

                      What happened to the Tremere's ritualistic purge of all non-Camarilla, Pyramid-adhering members?

                      maybe this is one of the good things about V20's open-ended approach, but then again they are the ones who brought these ideas to the table in the first place, thus encouraging it.


                      Personally, I never understood HOW the Tremere were allowed to hold a monopoly on Thaumaturgy in the first place. It's pretty clear that nobody trusts the Tremere in any official capacity. They exist because they are convenient to have on hand once magical shit starts happening, but that's about it.


                      The Tremere didn't just piss off the Tzimisce, they also pissed off the Gangrel and the Nosferatu; both of whom are part of the Camarilla and have a much broader skill set than simply being the spell slingers of the party. Why then, would the Camarilla not defend the idea of other clans learning such a power, especially if they've proven more dependable in the past than the most hated clan in the modern nights?

                      It's one thing for vampires to keep the Tremere around because they are useful. But it's quite another for them to help ensure the Tremere stay useful.

                      The Tremere have already proven their ability to curse entire clans, or wipe out entire groups of people in the blink of an eye without warning. Ask yourselves if you truly think the Ventrue are going to let that shit slide?
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 08-08-2017, 04:29 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post

                        A game about immortal bloodsucking monsters in a world a million times more morally bankrupt than ours "Oh no, rape and homophobia!"

                        Friend, I'm so gay it hurts, but I dont think centuries old Elders and even some freshly Embraced neonates would be averse to rape and homophobia.

                        I'm totally for pro-gay and anti-rape characters forcing these kind of characters to bite the dirt though, a little justice doesn't hurt, even in this world.

                        If it's a specific character that is rapey or homophobic, I don't really care (I mean, it's a really cheap way to gather contempt for someone but whatever). But when you want to establish the mood of a whole clan, you might want to refrain form framing them as hateful bigots. And the way V20 handles the Ventrue just feels like they were handed the "designated bad guys in the Cams" sticker. Also I don't like the bickering.

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                        • Originally posted by Davesknd View Post


                          If it's a specific character that is rapey or homophobic, I don't really care (I mean, it's a really cheap way to gather contempt for someone but whatever). But when you want to establish the mood of a whole clan, you might want to refrain form framing them as hateful bigots. And the way V20 handles the Ventrue just feels like they were handed the "designated bad guys in the Cams" sticker. Also I don't like the bickering.

                          Well many Brujah are the opposite of rapey or homophobic (really, this Clan probably boast the biggest number of radical and not-so radical feminists) though just as much are bigoted. I'd like to assume thath the quotes are either the opinion of one member or the cultivation of different opinions, not the Clan's complete hive mind thinking.

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                          • Originally posted by Shawarbaaz View Post


                            Well many Brujah are the opposite of rapey or homophobic (really, this Clan probably boast the biggest number of radical and not-so radical feminists) though just as much are bigoted. I'd like to assume thath the quotes are either the opinion of one member or the cultivation of different opinions, not the Clan's complete hive mind thinking.

                            And that's why the quote is bad. Because it represents an outlier and not the mainstream sentiment of the clan. If you don't use "average" opinions, then you might as well not put in any stereotype quotes.

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                            • Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                              Yeah Nihilistics was basically made into the Vitreous Path. Wish they'd do the same with Thanatosis, to be honest.
                              The Gift of Thanatos fanon path might be of interest to you, then:
                              http://wiki.stryck.com/WoD/TheDeathPath


                              (They/Them/Theirs)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Davesknd View Post


                                And that's why the quote is bad. Because it represents an outlier and not the mainstream sentiment of the clan. If you don't use "average" opinions, then you might as well not put in any stereotype quotes.
                                Agreed. I can appreciate:

                                Ventrue on Toreador: We provide structure, safety and survival. They provide a poetic spirit that decorates the grand hall we have built.

                                I can also appreciate:

                                Ventrue on Toreador: When you've risked flesh and blood to preserve everything you have built, only for some "artiste" to sneer at your success and call you a soulless civil servant, you'll finally understand my contempt for the Clan of the Rose.

                                Both of these stick with a sort of stereotypical Ventrue and a stereotypical Toreador, but they put different spins on it. However if we're dealing with:

                                Ventrue on Toreador: I just wish they didn't embrace so many coloureds. We all have our preferences, but if you want a [slur] in your bed there's always Ghouldom...

                                Then I'm going to dislike the representation. You could spin your average Ventrue as respecting or disliking the Toreador, but your *average* Ventrue being an out-and-out racist who specifically dislikes the Toreador for embracing people they find attractive? Yeah, no, that would be a Bad Thing.
                                Last edited by 11twiggins; 08-08-2017, 07:40 PM.

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