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How Does Tremere Clan Fight against Garous?

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  • How Does Tremere Clan Fight against Garous?

    Hi guys.

    I would like some help with 3 topics:
    • Best ways to fight Garous being Tremere.
    • How does Fetich mechanics works or alternative for spiritual combat?
    • If you can create a new Thaumaturgical path especialized on fighting Garous, wich characteristics woulf you include?
    My team, after reaching several breakpoints between various stories, we have finally started a game with elder vampires.

    We create characters without knowing anything more than the city would be Baton Rouge. I decided to create a Tremere. In life it was a fur trapper who survived an attack of werewolves and because of his strong willpower, the delirium did not erase his memory (there are more details, but it meant a personal vendetta of his against the herd that attacked him). Because in mortal life managed to collect enough information about the werewolves of the area was embraced by the tremere. As a vampire, he was instructed in the path of Spirit manipulation. With elder free points, i reached the 5th level of Thaumaturgy.

    And this is where the reason for my consultation begins. After completing the character cards, the narrator revealed more about the setting. Punctually regarding the tremere, the Chantry was built over a node / caern and we are constantly siedged by werewolves of all kinds and one to another mage.

    I know that at least 4 rituals are usefull against garous and their spirits:
    • Scent of the Garou's Passing
    • Ward Versus Lupines
    • Ward Versus Spirits
    • Summon Guardian Spirit
    But not only them are defenses, they operate passively.

    One alternative are the useage of Fetish. But as I know you must use willpower to activate them so their ussage in combat is really restricted. Also, is not easy to get or make (even for a master of spiritual manipulation). Are there another way o mechanic to activate them?

    Finally, as i have 5 dots in Thaumaturgy, mi storytaller allowed me to develop, by roleplaying this act, a new thaumaturgy path. I would like to develop a specific anti-garou path and rituals. I have think about some characteristics that may work:
    • Hide wyrm taint (as taumaturgy power)
    • Provoke Harano (as taumaturgy power)
    • Steal Gnosis (as taumaturgy power)
    • End rage (as taumaturgy power)
    • Block umbral jump (as ritual)
    • Esterilize relatives (as ritual)
    • Some kind of anti-gifts (with mechanics similar to thaumaturgic countermagic)

  • #2
    You already sound like you know the best mechanical defenses. Just include more silver weapons.

    As an ST I would be very reluctant allowing the kind of powers to be used against another supernatural group. It is just way too targeted and powerful. It also implies you have a lot of specific knowledge of Lupines just because (My character knows Lupines fuel their powers from two distinct supernatural energy sources, and that they can enter the spirit world, and that they have blood relatives who may give birth to more of them, and that the Spirits teach them additional powers, and that they can detect supernatural creatures they don't like, and that they sometimes experience extreme emotional despair). If I was running a Vampire game and threw an NPC hunter against the PCs who could 1) Stop Blood Use, 2) Provoke Rotschreck, 3) Drain Blood Pool, 4) Block Discipline Use, and 5) Break Blood Bonds, the PCs would be screaming bloody murder at me, and this is essentially what you want to do to Werewolves.

    For attack, what you want is the ability to create aggravated damage and whenever possible do it from far away. Silver bullets and Lure of Flame work well. Movement of Mind so you can fly away and hopefully keep out of range would also be good.

    If you are looking for new Rituals that would help, I would tone things down while still allowing some amount of help. For example, a Ritual which artificially increases Humanity for purposes of appearing human (say the Ritual gives you a temporary +2 or +3 Humanity for the purposes of looking human, so you need to spend less Blood) would help conceal Wyrm taint, be useful in other ways, but not be over powerful.

    Another thing I'd allow as an ST is to allow you to make contact with certain Banes who would be willing to help you against the Lupines, but in exchange for favors. So it would be a quid pro quo relationship. Having a Trash Skrag ready to pop out on command would be helpful, and you'd only need to make sure in the alley next to you that you kepts lots of trash (hopefully in some kind of container) so it could materialize.

    Of course making deals with Banes is dangerously close to the beginning of Infernalism, but smart and judicious use would give you some spiritual allies. And by talking to Banes, you'd eventually learn of other foes of Werewolves which you might be able to then parley into mutual help.

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    • #3
      Lure of Flames will be a good deal less effective because Master of Fire is a rather common Gift. You think that you're going to be inflicting horrible pain on every nerve, but it was just a slight tingling that inflicts bashing damage!

      There shouldn't be a Discipline effect to inflict Harano. It's too big a thing and makes the vampire's job too easy. Also, Tremere have no idea what the Wyrm is, so they shouldn't have a power to conceal whatever taint wafts from them. This lack of facility with spiritual doings suggests that other effects that would rely on knowing about them in detail are also going to be difficult to impossible to pull off.

      Ideally, the Tremere way of fighting is like the other vampires' way of fighting - don't.

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      • #4
        Yes, a Ritual to temporarily increase or decrease Humanity would be a good option, though they would have to track Sins by their temporary Humanity rather than their permanent Humanity to make it interesting. A Path of Garou Screwing would be far too powerful because Garou are thematically supposed to be something that Kindred are terrified of because their only effective defense is anonymity and, anyway, the Garou would probably up the ante by going into the Umbra to discover Rites that would hinder the Kindred. Imagine how unfair it would seem if the Garou could enact a Mystic Rite that causes any Kindred within a mile of the epicenter of the Rite to treat artificial light as if it was sunlight until the next full moon?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
          Also, Tremere have no idea what the Wyrm is, so they shouldn't have a power to conceal whatever taint wafts from them. This lack of facility with spiritual doings suggests that other effects that would rely on knowing about them in detail are also going to be difficult to impossible to pull off.
          Considering there are several thaumaturgy paths and rituals that involve binding, commanding, and communicating with spirits as well as walking through the spirit world, I think that's too wide of a claim to make. And since this Chantry specifically has a history with direct conflict with wolves, I think it would be fair that a decent number of the warlocks in this locale are educated about such matters.

          Ideally, the Tremere way of fighting is like the other vampires' way of fighting - don't.
          This. Tremere also have dominate. Collect boons by selling thaumaturgy. Dominate and ghoul servants. Arm them with riot gear(armor can soak agg from claws) and assault rifles loaded with silver bullets. Wards and warding circles are a good idea, but guards with silver bullets should still be a significant deterrent. As long as you use silver werewolves are going to have a very bad time with bullet poisoning, barring some very specific and high ranking gifts.

          There aren't enough high ranking garou to continuously risk them in assaults on any chantry. They can't reliably cross the Umbra near a chantry because on top of being a Vampire hive it's probably infested with other Wyrm spirits from all the crazy evil Tremere experiments they're doing. Still, consider taking Spirit Manipulation anyway so you can see what's going on in the Umbra at all times, and to command local spirits to obey you.

          Stone of The True Form is a level 5 ritual in one of the v20 books, and probably older material. It creates a trinket that allows the wielder to focus their will to force creatures into their natural forms. Unless they're Metis(and they really shouldn't be Metis) this will ruin their day, since they'll be stuck in their Homid or Lupus forms(depending), and not be able to shift into any of their more dangerous forms. Since there's no cap on these, everyone in the chantry could have one of these rocks given enough time.

          You don't have to kill all the Garou, but remember that they can't reproduce like Vampires. You just have to make the Chantry seriously not worth it to attack.
          Last edited by Zanos; 08-14-2017, 03:07 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Zanos View Post
            Considering there are several thaumaturgy paths and rituals that involve binding, commanding, and communicating with spirits as well as walking through the spirit world, I think that's too wide of a claim to make. And since this Chantry specifically has a history with direct conflict with wolves, I think it would be fair that a decent number of the warlocks in this locale are educated about such matters.
            They can know about spirits without knowing about a lot of vital specifics. The Triat is one of those specifics, as is how Garou learn Gifts and what they are.

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            • #7
              Trying to meet Werewolves head on with mechanics is more or less a death sentence for any coterie regardless of clan. ​Your best bet is to attack in ways that do not play to the werewolves strengths.

              ​If you can keep the Lupines out of your chantry, that buys you time to get things done. Depending on what you play with, paths like Alchemy, Transmutation, and Conjuration basically mean you have an endless supply of Silver to create traps, silver weapons, or in extreme cases you just silver plate the floors, walls, and ceiling of every hallway in the chantry.

              ​You defeat them by making other threats a bigger problem than you are. Between Dominate and Blood Bonds you make the local mortals focus on expanding the city environment. Unless you are dealing with Bone Gnawers or Glass Walkers, the urban environment puts them at slight disadvantage. Send mortal agencies to reclaim the land of their cairns, develop the land of their hunting grounds into ranches or apartment buildings, or you apply pressure to the kinfolk in the area either by slaughtering them or displacing them, which means the Garou have to spend their time on protection duty rather than on the attack.

              ​Make alliances with Black Spiral Dancers and have them help with the untainted wolves. Though any allies that you can throw at the werewolves rather than facing them personally is a good choice. Investing in a Gargoyle Rookery is a tempting option for defending the chantry, though the time required to get the gargoyles up to fighting levels is restrictive. If you have some above average intelligence Gargoyles then you can do things like giving them sniper rifles or satchels of explosives to do nightly raids on places of interest for the lupines.

              ​Failing that you can create a fake chantry, it has all the warding to keep lupines and spirits out, but you basically turn it into a death trap with all the sadistic creativity of an ST who wants a TPK. The harder it is for the Lupines to get into the fake chantry, the more they will believe it is the real one. Thanks to the requirements of Honor and Renown in the were-critter societies, they can be almost forced into suicidally attacking such a place over and over again. All the while the real chantry is down the block and you are just watching the meat grinder do its work.

              ​Lastly you could isolate the weakest member of the werewolf pack and turn them as a double agent. Make an agreement with them that you would feed their glory and help them rise in power in their pack if they insure the pack doesn't focus on your interests. You could even go so far as to set things up so that the weakling is the one who finally destroys the fake chantry, succeeding where everyone else had failed. Vampires don't have a life span, thus their plans take years and decades to come to fruition. Worst case scenario you simply leave the area and let the lupines grow old and die.

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              • #8
                Thoth

                You give an excellent strategy for dealing with garou.

                If a Tremere finds themselves facing off against a Garou in direct combat, someone, somewhere, in the pyramid wasn't doing their job.

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                • #9
                  Incorporeal Passage makes you immune to physical attacks. That's pretty much the one and only trump card you ever need. There's also a ritual in the Anarch guide, God help me if I remember its name off-hand), that allows you to soak aggravated with Stamina; between that, reducing gen with Path of Blood, and blood buffing Stamina, even if you don't have Incoporeal Passage you'll be just fine.

                  Sparing that, Movement of the Mind 3 allows you to fly safely out of attack range from a garou. MotM 4 will allow you to "force grip" crinos-form garou and hold them in mid-air such that they cannot attack.

                  Transmutation 1 allows you to harden weapons already made of silver and proof them against damage incurred in combat, which also increases their combat damage. This can also be made permanent via a ritual. In my TC game, I made a silver bastard sword for our Brujah PC which ended up doing Str+10L. Transmutation 2 allows you to make weapons out of molten silver for that extra "fuck you" factor, and Transmutation 3 allows you to liquefy room-temperature silver, making it possible to make weapons to aerosolize silver.

                  You can Ward any weapon. You can even ward bullets, but there are special conditions for it which make them less effective than any alternative.

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                  • #10
                    On a strategic level attempt to wait for winter before going on the offensive or drawing them into do theirs. Lowest amount of daylight vampires have the ability to carry out longer battles. Additionally that's when natural food sources will be sparsest. If you destroy their winter food supplies they will be forced to spend most of their time making ends meet rather than prepare and plan their war against you. Additionally they may well spread out to go hunting or spend more time earning money in the human world to make ends meet. Either way you can isolate small groups from the pack and eliminate them. Use the beasts rage against them, draw them into booby traps and ambushes.

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                    • #11
                      Speaking of Wards: Path of Warding is extremely useful.

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                      • #12
                        The problem with Garou though is that they can operate during the day. Arson is easy enough for them and even if your chantry survives, you will have to deal with mortal investigators. Beyond that, Garou snipers can easily take out your servants during the day, forcing you to leave the safety of your chantry to hunt during the night. Honestly, the only way to deal with Garou is to avoid their attention and, if you attract their attention, to leave town for a few months.

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                        • #13
                          The obvious solution is to use thaumaturgy to destroy the sun. That'll show 'em.

                          Nothing you said doesn't apply to, say, Sabbat ghouls. Or just a human with a gun and a moltov that doesn't like you.

                          I think I discussed this before, but I don't think the Tremere would build a chantry that's both above ground and flammable.

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                          • #14
                            The key is to never get into a fair fist fight with the Garou if you can help it. You just won't win that unless you have a disproportionate XP advantage. What you need is Better Bullshit. My recommendation would be either exploiting Path of Spirit Manipulation to make some rule-bending, cheat-y Fetishes to help you make the fight unfair, and/or using Influences to outsource the fighting to your mortal and institutional proxies.

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                            • #15
                              For Tremere Thaumaturgy isnt the only option.

                              Auspex, and specifically Auspex 5. Helps you map out the situation. Dominate and Thaumaturgy spam from the safety of your chantry.

                              Find the werewolves and put a ward around them, then start hurling flames. Or summon a volcano in the Caern. There are many options here, go wild.


                              Another good thing that would help(although not specifically for Tremere, but any vampire) is Obfuscate. It's not unfeasible that you know it.

                              In the way the whole WoD is constructed, the vampire main advantage over all other supernaturals is Obfuscate as a discipline and social advantage( the purpose of vampire society is to be unseen, right?). If you are of the 7th generation then there shouldn't be a non-vampire that can sense you. Garou, mages, Ghosts, everything. Even Obfuscate 5 is enough for 99.99% of everything supernatural.

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