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  • Gangrel and animal forms

    So, just to ask a few things because I have started playing as one Gangrel in a DA campaign...

    1.- Can one Gangrel drain blood while in animal form of Protean 4?
    2.- Does it triggers The Kiss?
    3.- Does it depends on the form? I can see a wolf or bat licking blood, but if you are an owl, falcon or rat it becomes kinda of ridiculous...
    4.- If you are a rat or any small form... can you drink up to your blood pool or would you be limited to the size you are currently on?

    Thanks in advance...

  • #2
    Originally posted by DrakeEpsilon View Post
    So, just to ask a few things because I have started playing as one Gangrel in a DA campaign...

    1.- Can one Gangrel drain blood while in animal form of Protean 4?
    2.- Does it triggers The Kiss?
    3.- Does it depends on the form? I can see a wolf or bat licking blood, but if you are an owl, falcon or rat it becomes kinda of ridiculous...
    4.- If you are a rat or any small form... can you drink up to your blood pool or would you be limited to the size you are currently on?

    Thanks in advance...
    To answer your first three questions simply: Yes, because you are still a vampire, regardless of your current physical anatomy. Even in animal form, your blood is still vampire vitae, and your body just as lifeless as in human form.

    About the Kiss: unless you have a Flaw that precludes the Kiss (like the Giovanni Clan Flaw or Ragged Bite) you can quickly cause a wound with other means (razor blade, needles, etc) than your fangs and then begin feeding to cause the Kiss effect, which is a common practice for some vampires out of preference or necessity. So, yeah, if you're feeding, you should be able to initiate the Kiss. Your ST might rule differently, however, for the reasons you noted in question 3 (seeming ridiculous).

    With regards to your 4th question: Your Blood Pool Maximum doesn't change with Protean transformations, so you should be able to drink your fill no matter the animal form's size. A vampire's Blood Pool Maximum doesn't abide by physics when taking the liquid volume of blood into account, even when that blood is freshly entering the Blood Pool (feeding). Otherwise lower generation vampires with huge Blood Pools would be impossible as portrayed. Blood becomes concentrated in a vampire's system instead, the lower a vampire's Generation, the more blood points concentrated into the same volume of blood. So, afaik, regardless of form, your Blood Pool Maximum should remain the same.

    I hope that helps.
    Last edited by AzraelFirestorm; 09-13-2017, 03:37 AM.


    (They/Them/Their) https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/borderland

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    • #3
      I'm still imagining a Swan Form snapping its beaks onto a person's arm and draining them dry...

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      • #4
        Originally posted by DrakeEpsilon View Post
        So, just to ask a few things because I have started playing as one Gangrel in a DA campaign...

        1.- Can one Gangrel drain blood while in animal form of Protean 4?
        2.- Does it triggers The Kiss?
        3.- Does it depends on the form? I can see a wolf or bat licking blood, but if you are an owl, falcon or rat it becomes kinda of ridiculous...
        4.- If you are a rat or any small form... can you drink up to your blood pool or would you be limited to the size you are currently on?

        Thanks in advance...
        It isn't laid out that I see. I'd probably say yes to one and two with the idea that three generally applies. I'd probably be fine with any animal that naturally has teeth being able to drain with fangs. But I'd probably say something with a beak or no teeth can only peck/suck/etc and cannot apply the kiss. Seems more fitting.

        As for four, I'd say you could drink up to one's blood pool. While vitae is roughly physical, changing shapes doesn't mention any pool penalty or the like. So I'd think the intent is to just keep full pool capacity as normal.

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        • #5
          On an unrelated note (kind of)... Can I change from one animal form to another? If I am in falcon form and I wanna transform into a bear mid-air to drop on top of someone, can I directly change to the other form? (I assume I still have to pay the bloodpoints, which would be 4 for instant change).

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DrakeEpsilon View Post
            On an unrelated note (kind of)... Can I change from one animal form to another? If I am in falcon form and I wanna transform into a bear mid-air to drop on top of someone, can I directly change to the other form? (I assume I still have to pay the bloodpoints, which would be 4 for instant change).
            Can't see why not. I had a PC who had a Sailfish form, a Bear form, a Falcon form... he spent a lot of time hunting.

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            • #7
              I didn't see anything about the rules requiring one changes back to human form first. Merely the notes that you could use any discipline besides some (didn't see Protean that I recall) and you remain in animal form for the night in regards to period of use. I think it'd be fine if you spent the necessary blood/time/etc when using it. Not sure how well the maneuver would play out in action, but don't see anything restricting it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
                I didn't see anything about the rules requiring one changes back to human form first. Merely the notes that you could use any discipline besides some (didn't see Protean that I recall) and you remain in animal form for the night in regards to period of use. I think it'd be fine if you spent the necessary blood/time/etc when using it. Not sure how well the maneuver would play out in action, but don't see anything restricting it.
                Maybe I should pump some blood in Stamina first... and hope to roll excellent in Atlhetics. But I guess it could be instant death for a mortal and heavy damage for a vampire... Still, probably would be a last resort attack...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DrakeEpsilon View Post

                  Maybe I should pump some blood in Stamina first... and hope to roll excellent in Atlhetics. But I guess it could be instant death for a mortal and heavy damage for a vampire... Still, probably would be a last resort attack...
                  Use the V20 rules for falls to see how much damage you take.

                  As for your opponents, look up the weight of a bear and compare it to the Strength chart for lifting weights. Add that number of dice to your Strength dice-pool and roll for damage. That's how I'd handle it anyways. So if you have Strength 6 and the bear's weight corresponds to Strength 6, that's 12 dice of bashing damage against a Vampire (and I'd make it Lethal damage against a human).

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post

                    Use the V20 rules for falls to see how much damage you take.

                    As for your opponents, look up the weight of a bear and compare it to the Strength chart for lifting weights. Add that number of dice to your Strength dice-pool and roll for damage. That's how I'd handle it anyways. So if you have Strength 6 and the bear's weight corresponds to Strength 6, that's 12 dice of bashing damage against a Vampire (and I'd make it Lethal damage against a human).
                    So, checking up data bears can weight from 100 to 675 kg wich would put them from a Strength of 3 to 10 in terms of crashing speed. That's an insane amount of damage. Not only that, Peregrine Falcon can reach up to 389 km/h (242 mph) in optimal condition while skydiving... Better invest some points in Fortitude before trying this...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DrakeEpsilon View Post

                      So, checking up data bears can weight from 100 to 675 kg wich would put them from a Strength of 3 to 10 in terms of crashing speed. That's an insane amount of damage. Not only that, Peregrine Falcon can reach up to 389 km/h (242 mph) in optimal condition while skydiving... Better invest some points in Fortitude before trying this...
                      On reflection, I think I'd state that transforming is a full action and can't be mixed up with other stuff. Transforming into a bird midair is cool, but transforming from a bird into a bear midair, while diving at maximum speed, while aiming for someone to hit on the ground? It doesn't feel right.

                      So just say that transforming is something you do while exerting no serious concentration or effort on anything else.

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                      • #12
                        So... what about just turning back to default vampire form? I can remember one book where a Gangrel does exactly that and crushes a guy before draining him of blood...

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                        • #13
                          I like your thinking on shifting forms to use the momentum of flight dive/gravity and the larger mass to increase damage.

                          A few nitpicks, though:

                          The change takes three turns to complete. When you are 2/3 Falcon and 1/3 Bear, it's hard to imagine flight still working as well as before, since bears, well, don't have wings. Spend extra blood to reduce the change time to the minimum of 1 turn. However, in that 1 turn you'll be mid-transformation, so flight, I would rule, would be impaired. Not drop like a rock impaired, though that would be a reasonable ruling. If we're being generous and allowing the retention of momentum, there will be no showy air stunts, just your momentum is carrying you forward... and downward.

                          Targeting will be much harder than you might think.

                          The loss of powered flight for a turn means you have to aim while you have flight and hope you accounted for all variables, including wind velocity throughout the air column (don't forget inversions!), changing masses, and movement of the target, because the bear and half-bear/half-falcon (balcon?) forms will not be able to adjust direction or rate of fall.

                          Bears are not usually considered very aerodynamic.

                          The change in mass will cause a change in momentum. Newton's second law gets weird in variable mass objects. Usually, variable mass objects are speeding up, because they are losing mass, like a rocket burning fuel. In this instance, you are gaining mass, so you will be slowing down, even as you maintain some of the momentum of the Falcon's flight. Except gravity will be accelerating you. Except a bear, being furry and flailing will catch a lot of wind resistance, so... friction.

                          The problem of variable mass objects was one of the reasons it took so long for humans to put something in orbit. It's literally rocket science.

                          Try doing this in your head, while changing forms. (Don't forget to account for the atmosphere and any wind.): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variab...Mass_accretion

                          So, as an ST, at my table, I would rule this: the Maneuver is essentially a Tackle (V20, p. 277), except the attack roll is Wits+Athletics (to reflect the complex, mid-air targeting), and is technically a Ranged attack, since the falcon is "throwing" the bear at the target. (So, you can't apply momentum from Celerity, however Aiming is an option if you have an Athletics of one or better, and spend a turn before the change lining things up.) The attack roll difficulty gets higher the higher up you are, so for every die of falling damage you accept, increase the difficulty to hit by +1. Note that the attack likely benefits from Ambush and Rear Attack modifiers (V20, p.274), so that could help. I would strongly suggest spending willpower.

                          For your part, you take falling damage (V20, p. 296), but any dice of damage you risk is also applied to the target in the Tackle's damage roll. (There goes Newton, ruining yet another fantasy game.) I assume you have Protean 2 claws on all four paws and teeth bared, so the damage against your target from the attack, both the Tackle dice and the bonus falling dice, is Aggravated. The falling damage is Bashing for you, as usual. I might rule it is unsoakable for you, since you are literally trying to throw yourself at something as hard as possible, with four claws and your snarling mouth aimed at the target... or the bare concrete depending on how the attack roll goes. Try Tackling a brick wall sometime... not fun.

                          When it's all over, assuming the tackle attack roll was successful, you both suffer a Knockdown (V20, p. 279). If it is unsuccessful, you suffer a Knockdown and whatever you hit in the environment takes all that Agg damage. There might literally be a small, bear-shaped crater in the dirt, with your opponent standing there, pointing and - does it need to be said? - laughing.

                          This is a high risk maneuver, because of the high difficulty to hit. However, if successful, especially from a great height, the target could look like Wile E. Coyote after one of the boulder incidents...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHmJ_t2EneM
                          Last edited by Nosimplehiway; 09-21-2017, 08:52 AM. Reason: Oops, did not notice you were in VDA20, where it is possible to reduce the change time to reflexive. Gonna need a second post to adjust.

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                          • #14
                            Right. Instant change is do-able in VDA20.

                            So, with an instantaneous change, the aiming gets much, much easier because you aren't free falling for a full turn. You could go into a full stooping dive and, reflexively, change when you are within inches of the target, accelerating the whole time.

                            It seems, then, like a cross between a Great Blow (which does not exist in V20 corebook) and a Tackle, but we need to model the increased speed somehow.

                            VDA20 has mounted combat rules, so that helps by having a rule for how speed adds to damage. Mounted attacks cause one additional die of damage for each turn building speed, up to a maximum of five dice.

                            Falcons are much faster than, and can accelerate faster than a mount, though. In a full stoop attack, they can reach over 200 mph.

                            So, I would add three dice for each turn in your dive building speed. To do this, you would have to start at your maximum flight altitude, so long distance vision might be necessary for proper aiming. I would allow the dive to last, say, one turn for every dot of Perception and Auspex you have, up to a maximum of 5 turns. So, a maximum of fifteen dice of speed damage.

                            However, the extra dice of damage from the speed would still apply to both you and your target. You may not be free falling into a brick wall, but you are flying as fast as possible. You could, of course, change that fifteen dice of extra damage to any lower amount you want by taking a shorter dive, to save you some pain on impact, but with it being bashing for you and agg for your target, why would you?


                            Attack roll is Dexterity+Athletics, difficulty is normal, at 6. Block, Dodge and Parry rules apply, but only if the target sees you coming. A falcon in full dive at night? You'll likely get Ambush and Rear Attack advantage. if you succeed, you both take a Knockdown.

                            The instant change turns the attack from a bear being shot awkwardly from a cannon to a bear flying at you at 250 mph.

                            If you miss, you will still leave a bear shaped crater, though.
                            Last edited by Nosimplehiway; 09-21-2017, 09:49 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Well, that's an awesome way to answer. Buddy, you are my favorite person in this forum!

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