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Making Cainite Dogsbodies

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  • Making Cainite Dogsbodies

    Recently, I have had reason in our campaign to have a grudge for a Tzimisce who has been inconvenient to our coterie. How would you turn a captured cainite to your service?

  • #2
    Since you mention Tzimisce, I'm not sure if you're asking literal dogsbodies or just making them loyal to you... Anyway, assuming service, blood bonding is a good start. Various uses of Dominate and some Presence can greatly assist as well.

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    • #3
      Talking is also an option. You know, the method humanity used for converting people to their way of thinking since the development of language. Everyone wants something - find out what the Tzimisce wants and offer them a deal.

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      • #4
        If your coterie is from the Camarilla you have another problem: your Tzimisce is probably bonded to the sabbat cause, or at least his pack through the Vaulderie. Unfortunatly talking may not be sufficient because of that, so perhaps considers finding a way to break the Vaulderie (but honestly ask your GM, since some would consider this a campaign end goal).

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post
          If your coterie is from the Camarilla you have another problem: your Tzimisce is probably bonded to the sabbat cause, or at least his pack through the Vaulderie. Unfortunatly talking may not be sufficient because of that, so perhaps considers finding a way to break the Vaulderie (but honestly ask your GM, since some would consider this a campaign end goal).
          Finding a way to break the Vaulderie would be an epic achievement in of itself.

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          • #6
            Breaking Vaulderie could be a problem, but not insurmountable. The texts mention that while Vaulderie will quickly corrode a blood bond, the opposite is also true (but takes a lot longer).

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            • #7
              Originally posted by g3taso View Post
              Breaking Vaulderie could be a problem, but not insurmountable. The texts mention that while Vaulderie will quickly corrode a blood bond, the opposite is also true (but takes a lot longer).
              Bzzt. Wrong.

              The Vaulderie can also corrode existing blood bonds. Multiple draughts of the Vaulderie may be required, but sooner or later, the pack‘s blood will overcome all but the most potent of vampiric vitae. A vampire wishing to break a blood bond via Vaulderie must have no more than one blood point in his blood pool, and must ingest six points of Vaulderie vitae. At that point, the old blood bond fades rapidly, replaced almost as quickly by Vinculi toward those whose blood composed the Vaulderie. On the other hand, a vampire attempting to replace Vinculi with a new blood bond is in for a disappointment — unless her blood is powerfully potent, Vinculi may not be so easily erased. Unlike normal blood bonds, Vinculi do not fade over time — a Vinculum left after a Vaulderie with a vampire in nights hundreds of years past is still as potent as the night it arose. Indeed, many elder Sabbat have vast webs of Vinculi connecting them to Sect members across the world.

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              • #8
                You are right. I looked it up. That creates a complication. Might be simpler to erase every memory he has prior to the night we grab and stake him. Hmmmm....

                That idea has some merit. Lemme throw this out there. A total amnesiac with a full Bond. Many to all of his skills but no backgrounds. No knowledge of the bond or vaulderie as part of the package. Of course he'd fixate on me, I'm the only thing that matters. He'd make a great servant, but no Contacts or other backgrounds. He'd make an Igor but not Commander Riker, if you take my meaning.
                Any ideas on how to refine or improve on this technique? Comments?
                Last edited by g3taso; 09-13-2017, 06:40 PM. Reason: I phrased it better

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                • #9
                  Being Loyal to someone doesn't mean you can't make private deals. Plenty of areas as of v20 have much colder conflicts between Sabbat and Camarilla, with Consuls going back and forth.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                    Finding a way to break the Vaulderie would be an epic achievement in of itself.
                    As I said it depends on the GM, mine gave a ritual to my character that allows him to not only undo blood bonds but also the Vaulderie, at the cost of all his temporary willpower minus one, and not as a campaign end goal (my character's end goal, right now, would be Golconda). But then that's my GM, I as a GM would probably not allow this.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post

                      As I said it depends on the GM, mine gave a ritual to my character that allows him to not only undo blood bonds but also the Vaulderie, at the cost of all his temporary willpower minus one, and not as a campaign end goal (my character's end goal, right now, would be Golconda). But then that's my GM, I as a GM would probably not allow this.
                      So... on a really bad night, where the character is exhausted, and has only one willpower left, the ritual costs nothing?

                      But if the character has a willpower of ten, has had a calm night, with no major exertions, and has a full willpower pool... the ritual costs nine willpower?

                      That seems... counter-intuitive.

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                      • #12
                        Counter intuitive? More likely poor writing. I was thinking of the Indoctrination skill from the Freak Legion supplement. Dominate 3 to remove past knowledge in conjunction with blood bond / vaulerie (while removing all knowledge of those subjects I don't want him to have) goes a long way toward the Malkavian "Restructure" power. Just longer to do.

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                        • #13
                          The character has to be at full-willpower to use the ritual and his permanent willpower is 8 so that's a 7 points ritual cost. But still, that's a ritual that allows him to break the Vaulderie without sacrificing dozen of baby kittens, with no knownledge of Thaumaturgy and a high generation, with no personnal cost but "I'll be really depressed for a weak". Kinda broken if you ask me.

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                          • #14
                            Just a thought, but does the Vaulderie mechanically model a blood bond to the Sabbat as a whole, like the Tremere do? Or is it technically just many, many individual bonds of varying strengths to a long, long list of individual members of the Sabbat?

                            If, as I seem to recall, it is the latter, the most direct method would be to kill off everyone with whom she holds a vinculi. This would be impractical with older vampires, or those who take part in rites regularly. For newly created or converted members, though, it is an option.

                            An interesting chronicle might be built around a coterie that is captured by the Sabbat and forced into the vaulderie. After escaping, they would have to hunt down and destroy all the Sabbat they are bound to, in order to "clear the decks", as it were. Some might sit out certain operations if it involves those who hold a stronger bond over them, and it would be an interesting complication if some of those being hunted have a close bond with their hunters.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                              Just a thought, but does the Vaulderie mechanically model a blood bond to the Sabbat as a whole, like the Tremere do? Or is it technically just many, many individual bonds of varying strengths to a long, long list of individual members of the Sabbat?
                              No really, but kind of. It doesn't give you a 1 step 2 step or 3 step blood bond to people. It gives you (variable) bond to everybody that gets more powerful over successive drinks.

                              The most common rule for Vaulderie for Tabletop is that you roll a d10 for each other person in that particular vaulderie. Your roll gaves you a rating out of 10 for how devoted you are to them.
                              If you already have rating and roll higher than your old rating; it goes up,a one drops it by 1 and anything else it's stable.
                              If you want to do something against someone, you roll WP against that rating as your difficulty.

                              So if you join a massive Vaulderie with all the position leaders, you don't love them like a dominitor, but if they ask a favour, you'll probably do it, like for a friend - good friend depending on rating. And that's an possible connection to everyone in every city that they've visitied. It's literally how the Sabbat keeps from falling apart.

                              There's another factor; The ritual was developed by Lugoj "Oathbreaker" or The Tzimesce Eldest pretending to be Lugoj depending on when exactly it was devised. "Oathbreaker" being a term not for his honour, but ability to manipulate and break blood bonds of people in his sight.

                              I don't like your luck on trying to break something created by either an Antidiluvian or someone who spent centuries finding a way to implement a power he'd developed into affecting everyone (Possible a combo discipline or alternate level 8-9 Viscisitude/Kuldunism power)

                              Especially since if it a counter worked, and could be implemented large scale; the Sabbat would devour itself from the inside out

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