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Vampires affected by The Kiss during combat

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  • Vampires affected by The Kiss during combat

    When a vampire bites and feeds from a human, the victim immediately stops fighting and lets the vampire feed.

    Is this also true when the victim is another vampire?

    Let's say a frenzied neonate manages to bite and start drinking form a vampire, is there anything the other vampire can do?

  • #2
    Per V20 Core page 269.
    Note:While Kindred find the Kiss pleasurable, they may resist it more readily than mortals can. Any Kindred, regardless of Willpower, may make a Self-Control/Instincts roll (difficulty 8) to avoid succumbing to the Kiss. This enables vampiric victims of diablerie (p. 293)to have a chance at fighting back.

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    • #3
      OK, that's what I call a good answer XD

      Thanks

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      • #4
        This actually raises some questions I've been super-confused about for a while.

        The Giovanni clan weakness causes "excrutiating pain in mortals who receive it". (V20, p57) This extreme pain doubles the damage dealt.

        So, some questions:

        1. Is the extreme pain only caused in mortals, so the kiss is pleasurable (though able to be resisted, of course) with another vampire? What about other supernaturals? Ghouls? Revenants? Mages are mortals, though awakened. Mummies aren't mortals, right? Fae? Garou? Demons? Are wraiths mortals? The mortal doesn't feel pleasure, but what about the Giovanni? Do they find it pleasurable? If vampires and ghouls do find it pleasurable, it could explain a lot about Giovanni clan culture and their acceptance of incest.

        2. If vampires don't feel pleasure from a Giovanni kiss, then... The extra pain causes "twice as much damage as the kiss of another vampire would inflict". (V20, p57) So, when using the "combat" Bite maneuver (V20, p276) on a mortal, or others who feel the uber-pain, do Giovanni do double damage as well? Remember, the "combat" Bite maneuver is agg damage. If so, it's not much of a weakness as it doubles the only way most vampires can do agg damage. If not, why not? Is it possible its actually less painful to receive the bite of a Giovanni chomping away violently in combat than when they try their hardest to be gentle while feeding? Maybe it does Agg damage, then an equal amount of Lethal damage from the pain? How do you handle the soak for all this, if it's mixed damage?

        3. Can you lick shut the wound from a "combat bite", in which blood was not drained, as in the second version of the bite maneuver, which for most vampires causes euphoria, but no damage beyond that from the blood loss? What if turn after turn the Giovanni uses the combat bite, only to finish with a single turn of feeding? Can they lick it shut then?

        3. If the "combat bite" isn't super-painful and can be licked shut, then couldn't a Giovanni use the combat bite to open the skin, drink the blood which naturally oozes (or sprays, if they know what they are doing) out, then lick it shut?

        I think I'm suddenly quite happy I never had to ST for a player with a Giovanni.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
          1. Is the extreme pain only caused in mortals, so the kiss is pleasurable (though able to be resisted, of course) with another vampire? What about other supernaturals? Ghouls? Revenants? Mages are mortals, though awakened. Mummies aren't mortals, right? Fae? Garou? Demons? Are wraiths mortals? The mortal doesn't feel pleasure, but what about the Giovanni? Do they find it pleasurable? If vampires and ghouls do find it pleasurable, it could explain a lot about Giovanni clan culture and their acceptance of incest.
          Drinking causes one lethal per blood point taken to mortals. None to vampires, they just lose their power and blood.
          Bite is as per combat manouver; Str Agg damage and it is ripping a chunk of flesh out, it can't be licke better

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            This actually raises some questions I've been super-confused about for a while.

            The Giovanni clan weakness causes "excrutiating pain in mortals who receive it". (V20, p57) This extreme pain doubles the damage dealt.

            So, some questions:

            1. Is the extreme pain only caused in mortals, so the kiss is pleasurable (though able to be resisted, of course) with another vampire? What about other supernaturals? Ghouls? Revenants? Mages are mortals, though awakened. Mummies aren't mortals, right? Fae? Garou? Demons? Are wraiths mortals? The mortal doesn't feel pleasure, but what about the Giovanni? Do they find it pleasurable? If vampires and ghouls do find it pleasurable, it could explain a lot about Giovanni clan culture and their acceptance of incest.
            RAW, it specifies it causes pain in 'mortal vessels' and they do twice as much damage when feeding upon a 'mortal'. So straightforward, it causes pleasure to a Vampire, unless there is further language elsewhere. Though, RAI, I expect it would be painful to other Kindred and just not do the extra damage. I'd probably qualify ghouls and Revenants as still mortal. No on Mummies and Wraiths. Probably would still count Garou and some Fae, depending (I don't know much about Fae). From my understanding, the drinking blood is the good part and the Kiss is just the effect on the vessel, so I would think they still find pleasure in feeding. And again, RAW, it only causes the pain in their 'mortal vessels'.

            2. If vampires don't feel pleasure from a Giovanni kiss, then... The extra pain causes "twice as much damage as the kiss of another vampire would inflict". (V20, p57) So, when using the "combat" Bite maneuver (V20, p276) on a mortal, or others who feel the uber-pain, do Giovanni do double damage as well? Remember, the "combat" Bite maneuver is agg damage. If so, it's not much of a weakness as it doubles the only way most vampires can do agg damage. If not, why not? Is it possible its actually less painful to receive the bite of a Giovanni chomping away violently in combat than when they try their hardest to be gentle while feeding? Maybe it does Agg damage, then an equal amount of Lethal damage from the pain? How do you handle the soak for all this, if it's mixed damage?
            Assuming a reading that they do (either from the idea of RAI or some other language) then no, it because you need to include the full quote. "When a Giovanni feeds upon a mortal, she does twice as much damage as the Kiss of another vampire would inflict." My emphasis. Even if the pain happens to other Kindred, it specifies this extra damage only occurs in mortals they feed on. We already know Kindred can resist the Kiss easier than mortals, so I assume a rationale explanation for the disparity is the pain (again, assuming it affects Kindred at all here) isn't severe enough to cause damage.

            As for doing double aggravated on a combat bite, no. Because again, it specifies when a Giovanni 'feeds' she does twice as much damage 'as the Kiss of another vampire.' So it has to specifically be a Kiss feeding bite and not the aggravated style chomping bite to. The reasoning for this would likely be the fact that the pain of the cursed Kiss is causing the extra damage.

            3. If the "combat bite" isn't super-painful and can be licked shut, then couldn't a Giovanni use the combat bite to open the skin, drink the blood which naturally oozes (or sprays, if they know what they are doing) out, then lick it shut?

            I think I'm suddenly quite happy I never had to ST for a player with a Giovanni.
            I feel like the water is being muddied with the unclear use of the term 'combat bite' as there are two kinds of bites lists next to each other. I assume combat bite means a bite intended to cause (agg) damage and no kiss. As oppossed to the secondary listed 'Kiss feeding bite'. In which case, one can only lick closed a Kiss bite, not a 'combat bite'. So they could rip off flesh with a bite, drink, then try to close the wound.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
              Assuming a reading that they do (either from the idea of RAI or some other language) then no, it because you need to include the full quote. "When a Giovanni feeds upon a mortal, she does twice as much damage as the Kiss of another vampire would inflict." My emphasis. Even if the pain happens to other Kindred, it specifies this extra damage only occurs in mortals they feed on. We already know Kindred can resist the Kiss easier than mortals, so I assume a rationale explanation for the disparity is the pain (again, assuming it affects Kindred at all here) isn't severe enough to cause damage.
              Of course this runs into a problem of feeding doing zero damage, multiply it by however much you want.

              Let me spice up the thread with a new question!
              Suppose we have a vampire with Vicissitude and Celerity. A group of people attack the vampire, and he wants to deal with them quickly and efficiently. To that end he activates Celerity and runs through the room flesh-melding everyone to everyone in a one long chain. Then he bites the person nearest to them.
              * Does the vampire suck the blood only out of the bitten person, or out of the entire chain?
              * How many people in the chain are affected by the Kiss?
              * In what order will people die from blood loss?
              * What if some of the people in the chain are vampires?
              * Is there a limit on how many people can be sucked out?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Kammerer View Post
                Of course this runs into a problem of feeding doing zero damage, multiply it by however much you want.
                I actually ran into that and it seemed poorly worded. It mentioned the Kiss bite specifically doesn't do damage. And poorly outlined the nature of the specifics of damage per blood loss, unless I was just looking at the wrong section. I'm not the best at mechanics sometimes.

                Let me spice up the thread with a new question!
                Suppose we have a vampire with Vicissitude and Celerity. A group of people attack the vampire, and he wants to deal with them quickly and efficiently. To that end he activates Celerity and runs through the room flesh-melding everyone to everyone in a one long chain. Then he bites the person nearest to them.
                * Does the vampire suck the blood only out of the bitten person, or out of the entire chain?
                * How many people in the chain are affected by the Kiss?
                * In what order will people die from blood loss?
                * What if some of the people in the chain are vampires?
                * Is there a limit on how many people can be sucked out?
                - Assumedly just the last person. I suppose it would depend how they linked them together. Unless they somehow were effectively connecting enough for strong blood flow, I guess it could be from the chain. But that might be a bit more involved than a rough grab and tuck.
                - I would probably rule that, despite being somewhat connected, they should still be counted as separate entities. And thus only really allow the kiss on the one being fed from. Perhaps some residual transference to the nearest person in the chain, depending, again, on how thickly they are bound together.
                - It depends on the nature of their connection as before. I'm no doctor, but if there is a strong enough blood flow, I would think the blood from the others would start pumping into the first person and they would all go down equally at first. But without enough flow, it'd just be one after another per normal.
                - A much harder question. Without a strong connection, I don't think much blood is going to be forced into them and they'd be somewhat of a block. If there was a strong flow, I think there is a risk of everyone else possibly dying from large quantities of vitae replacing their normal blood. Actually, does blood become vitae when it enters a Kindred system or just when they feed? If just feeding, I suppose the risk is just that their blood is cooling in the dead Kindred, which might lead to other damage.
                - It depends how strong the blood flow is and sucking power of the Kindred in question. The most common sense answer I could make would be that one couldn't effectively suck past the second person.


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                • #9
                  I think it's safe to say that vampires can generate arbitrary amout of magical sucking power since they can feed from each other (vampires have no blood flow) and bottom out a cow in two turns.

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                  • #10
                    Does it matter if Celerity is even used? The fact that it's a slap-dash, drive-by melding together could complicate the question.

                    Can we isolate the question of whether melded victims share a single blood pool, from whether this could be done quickly in combat? In other words, does carefully and methodically linking together multiple victim's circulatory system create one giant blood pool? Then, as a follow-up question, could this be done quickly in combat using Celerity?

                    I tend to think, if performed at leisure, a commingled blood pool could be created. Vicissitude depends on the Medicine knowledge, rather than Occult, so modern science's achievements could inform this discussion. Conjoined twins do exist with shared blood supplies, and several medical procedures depend on artificial perfusion, like dialysis. So, I think a joint blood pool could be created, given a high enough number of successes.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjoined_twins

                    This would almost certainly be an extended roll, though, as you don't just connect people willy-nilly for perfusion, you need to balance pressures and flows if you want the victims to stay alive long enough to attempt the drinking experiment. That requires standing back to check and recheck, and set and reset your connections. So, I'm doubtful it could be successfully done in combat with Celerity.

                    It's like asking, "Is it possible to bake a cake very quickly using Celerity?" It's possible to mix the ingredients, and turn on the oven, and even wash the pans very quickly. But the oven pre-heating, the batter rising and solidifying, and the cake cooling off enough to frost it is not on the same timetable as your Celerity.

                    Now, with Temporis...

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                      This would almost certainly be an extended roll, though, as you don't just connect people willy-nilly for perfusion, you need to balance pressures and flows if you want the victims to stay alive long enough to attempt the drinking experiment. That requires standing back to check and recheck, and set and reset your connections. So, I'm doubtful it could be successfully done in combat with Celerity.
                      Um. The end goal is to drink all the people in one gulp, ideally while affecting them all with the Kiss. That they all die by the end is a given.

                      Furthermore, Vicissitude is a magical power that does magic. You can move someone's nose to their ass and they'll still have a functional nose, despite all the physiological problems that should involve. With Vicissitude 6 you can give people an arbitrary amount of functional arms. According to DA:V20 you can fleshcraft functional eyes and mouths with your bare hands. Vicissitude just works, presumably with some mystic knowledge that Tzimisce learn in Body Crafts classes.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                        1. Is the extreme pain only caused in mortals, so the kiss is pleasurable (though able to be resisted, of course) with another vampire?
                        Personally I claim to remember it having been said somewhere that the intent s that the Giovanni bite could still cause Kiss like paralysis in other Kindred, unfortunately I cant remember where it was and during which edition. Still I have ruled it at my table as causing the same paralysis, with the same resistances, as a normal Kiss but with the difference of the paralysis being caused by intense agonizing pain instead of extatic pleasure.

                        What about other supernaturals?
                        Depends on the ST and the supernatural. There are plenty of conflicting crossover rules in WoD.

                        Ghouls? Revenants?
                        Generally they are suscetible to the Kiss, just like mortals.
                        Mages are mortals, though awakened.
                        Mostly Mages are treated as mortals in this regard though they tend to be of strong will and so may be able to resist as per mortals of 9+ will.

                        Mummies aren't mortals, right?
                        Not mortals no but depending on the edition they are in many aspects like mortals. Resurrection Mummies are suspectible to Bloodbonds, though able to break them through Balance, which would make me think they are vulnerable to the Kiss as well though possibly able to brake free through Balance. Their blood on the other hand will cause some complications to the vampire in question...

                        Fae?
                        Fae as in Dark Ages Fae or Fae as in Changeling? For the former it depends upon their seeming, Inanimae do kot have blood at all but either water, earth, fire or another element in their beings so generally the Kiss is not an issue as the vampire will be kettingein go pretty fast an way, for the others Kiss will be an issue and since there is no ruling one way or the other, Kiss is not mentioned in the book, it is likely they suffer as mortals would.
                        CtD, and C20, Changelings are vulnerable to the Kiss as far as I remember. All Fae blood will be causing some side effect for the vampire drinkin it though.

                        Garou?
                        According to Werewolf the Dark Ages Garou may get a willpower or Rage roll to resist the Kiss but cant remember if DA: Werewolf changed it or even mentioned it. But naturally since Garou tend to travel in pacts succumbing to the Kiss is not necessarily a huge problem as your pack mates will tear the offending vampire to shreds in short order.
                        Demons?
                        Demons are immune to effects that would control them or instill fear so I would give them resistance at the very least.
                        Are wraiths mortals?
                        No and they generally cannot be fed from nor are they generally vulnerable to the bite either.

                        The mortal doesn't feel pleasure, but what about the Giovanni? Do they find it pleasurable? If vampires and ghouls do find it pleasurable, it could explain a lot about Giovanni clan culture and their acceptance of incest.
                        The Giovanni Naturally feel pleasure from feeding even if their victim does not.

                        But unfortunately I’m short on time so I’ll return to the rest of the questions another time.

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                        • #13
                          Back.
                          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                          2. If vampires don't feel pleasure from a Giovanni kiss, then... The extra pain causes "twice as much damage as the kiss of another vampire would inflict". (V20, p57) So, when using the "combat" Bite maneuver (V20, p276) on a mortal, or others who feel the uber-pain, do Giovanni do double damage as well? Remember, the "combat" Bite maneuver is agg damage. If so, it's not much of a weakness as it doubles the only way most vampires can do agg damage. If not, why not? Is it possible its actually less painful to receive the bite of a Giovanni chomping away violently in combat than when they try their hardest to be gentle while feeding? Maybe it does Agg damage, then an equal amount of Lethal damage from the pain? How do you handle the soak for all this, if it's mixed damage?
                          The Giovanni weakness doubles only Kiss inflicted damage, that is to say damage from Blood loss, as the weakness itself states in V20 that it inflicts two points of damage per bloodpoint taken. It has absolutely no effect on combat bite which inlicts aggravated damage and s excrutiatingly painful no matter the clan of a vampire doing it.

                          3. Can you lick shut the wound from a "combat bite", in which blood was not drained, as in the second version of the bite maneuver, which for most vampires causes euphoria, but no damage beyond that from the blood loss? What if turn after turn the Giovanni uses the combat bite, only to finish with a single turn of feeding? Can they lick it shut then?

                          3. If the "combat bite" isn't super-painful and can be licked shut, then couldn't a Giovanni use the combat bite to open the skin, drink the blood which naturally oozes (or sprays, if they know what they are doing) out, then lick it shut?

                          .
                          And finally no you cannot lick a combat bite wound shut, that applies only for the Kiss.
                          Last edited by Possessed; 10-08-2017, 11:52 AM. Reason: Typo

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            Personally I claim to remember it having been said somewhere that the intent s that the Giovanni bite could still cause Kiss like paralysis in other Kindred, unfortunately I cant remember where it was and during which edition. Still I have ruled it at my table as causing the same paralysis, with the same resistances, as a normal Kiss but with the difference of the paralysis being caused by intense agonizing pain instead of extatic pleasure.
                            I agree, the rules for Giovanni weakness don't say that they don't have the Kiss, only that the Kiss is painful.

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