Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Questions on Nagaraja and Nikitu weaknesses.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    The question of whether animal flesh will suffice, btw, is still hanging out there. Since standard vampires can drink non-human blood, and the weakness doesn't specifically say it must be human flesh, it could be argued that the easiest place to get a few pounds of "flesh" is the local butcher shop.
    Not if we go by the original writeup in Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, which states in clear terms that Nagaraja "must eat raw human flesh as well as drinking blood." The intent is obvious, and I'd consider any later iterations of the weakness poorly defined if they leave that out.

    Comment


    • #17
      If you have 0 dice for any Physically-related task, how is there not a "chance you would fail" and thus a need to roll? Standing up would be a difficulty 2 roll, almost impossible to fail. And people do, occasionally, trip or overbalance (they rolled a 1 on a single die) and fall in ordinary circumstances. Just walking down the street, or getting up from a chair at home.

      When reduced to 0 dice for any Physical pool, you should be incapable of any physical action. Because, due to your overwhelming penalty, the ST should be assuming that there's a chance to fail almost any roll. In fact, as the penalty stacks up higher, the ST should start asking for rolls for more and more mundane tasks. Hands shaking, weakness, etc. It becomes hard to perform basic tasks. And, eventually, impossible. That's what the penalty represents.


      I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

      Comment


      • #18
        That's a bit bizarre, so you would ask someone with Dexterity/Strength 1 to roll in order to "stand up" or "walk"?, do you really think that if the optional rule of automatic sucesses isn't in place then you need to roll to breath?.

        I wouldn't, the book doesn't say that if you've too little of a reserve you can fail at standing up, the book doesn't state to be aplying the automatic successes rule when you walk. It just say "you suceed". I think it's reasonable to think that there are things that don't need a roll.

        I also think that the idea of a "negative reserve" it's a fabrication, there's no such thing as negative dice. Rules cover having 0 in an atribute, but they do not cover negative numbers on Atributes and thus I would say that these don't exist (I would say Atribute mathematic does not use Integers, but Naturals + 0 ).
        Last edited by Aleph; 10-17-2017, 04:35 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Telgar View Post
          If you have 0 dice for any Physically-related task, how is there not a "chance you would fail" and thus a need to roll? Standing up would be a difficulty 2 roll, almost impossible to fail.
          Because since they have the attribute, the situation isn't in doubt. In a no stress environment, I don't even think I'd necessarily assign any difficulty to such minor things. It isn't even really much of an action unless it might produce an interesting outcome. And normal movement doesn't really even require a roll.

          And people do, occasionally, trip or overbalance (they rolled a 1 on a single die) and fall in ordinary circumstances. Just walking down the street, or getting up from a chair at home.
          Again, if you are an ST who enjoys asking plays to roll to sit up from a chair in a non-stressful situation, that's your prerogative. Doesn't sound like a terribly fun or interesting game to me.

          Comment


          • #20
            I'm not aware of any published examples of negative dice pools either. I would also be wary of treating the Classic World of Darkness rules as a "physics simulator" of the game world, when they were not designed for anything like such a task.

            Generally, dice should only be rolled if both success and failure would produce interesting results, and there isn't much that appeals to me about rolling to see whether a weakened Nagaraja stands up from a chair or flops on the floor.

            I'd likely just rule that the dice pools of Nagaraja can only drop to a minimum of one die, just like the Tzimisce. The need for raw human flesh is already magnitudes more severe as a weakness than the need to obtain specific dirt, and there's no reason to cripple the Nagaraja any further.

            Comment


            • #21
              I don't consider "suffering from magical cannibal starvation" to be a "non-stressful situation".

              Under ordinary circumstances, no, I would not require a roll to stand, walk, sit, etc. But when there is a significant chance of failure, I would. And there is a significant chance of failure when you are affected by a magical curse that is reducing all your Physical dice pools to 0. That is not an ordinary circumstance.

              What's the alternative? That starved Nagaraja with 0 dice in Physical pools can walk around, dance, exercise, write, and generally go about their daily routines unless they're trying to do something worthy of a swelling soundtrack? Magical starvation doesn't seem very much like regular starvation.


              I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

              Comment


              • #22
                The alternative to requiring a roll for standing, walking, and sitting is not to let the person dance, exercise, and write normally, but to simply say that they must concentrate on their immediate survival, without wasting time on completely uninteresting rolls.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Telgar View Post
                  I don't consider "suffering from magical cannibal starvation" to be a "non-stressful situation".

                  Under ordinary circumstances, no, I would not require a roll to stand, walk, sit, etc. But when there is a significant chance of failure, I would. And there is a significant chance of failure when you are affected by a magical curse that is reducing all your Physical dice pools to 0. That is not an ordinary circumstance.
                  And I just don't agree trying to stand and walk from a chair in one's haven is really that stressful, given the Kindred might even have some time before they run out of blood. Standing and walking, given an attribute and the physical facilities, is one of the most trivial tasks I can consider in the game. And to rate it at any difficulty like this seems absurd. And hardly streamlining play or interesting.

                  What's the alternative? That starved Nagaraja with 0 dice in Physical pools can walk around, dance, exercise, write, and generally go about their daily routines unless they're trying to do something worthy of a swelling soundtrack? Magical starvation doesn't seem very much like regular starvation.
                  The alternative is that they can walk, talk, and perform the most basic of tasks like opening a door. Whereas strenuous activity (including something like dancing and exercise) would be nigh impossible. Which still precludes fighting, fleeing, various forms of self-defense, some feeding methods to a significant degree. Activities a starving Nagaraja likely needs to do, given they probably lack access to easy bodies if they've gone so long without. As though the fact that needing to eat human flesh consistently to perform the above (actions largely necessary to Kindred existence anyway) isn't already a weakness.
                  If the potential for failure isn’t interesting, the Storyteller should question whether a roll is even necessary.
                  If a roll of the dice doesn’t create multiple possible interesting outcomes, there’s not much benefit in calling for one. At the Storyteller’s discretion, a situation might not
                  need a roll to proceed with a reasonable outcome.
                  So one weakness (as you present it) involves having people automatically fail dice rolls to stand and/or walk, possibly going a couple steps from Willpower before laying on the floor to starve. A weakness that would essentially cause anyone in a wound torpor to fall into a subsequent starvation torpor - awakening to be unable to move. How interesting and dramatic.
                  Whereas the other weakness leaves a starving and weakened Nagaraja to do their best to survive, with options. Perhaps they awaken from torpor to scour alleyways for a bum that's had too many while wasting precious hours, maybe murdering when they'd have not wanted to. Something that might leave evidence for future drama. Maybe they are forced to call in a boon to received aid from another Kindred or even fall into the debt of another. Perhaps trying to deal with a ghost that might know where a body is. Or numerous other outcomes that are more interesting than being paralyzed and going into torpor.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I'm with Telgar on this one. A Nagaraja who let themselves go that far deserves what they've got. I'd maybe allow them to crawl or woundedly limp like a movie character, but in no way would they be a functional person. Hope you've got loyal allies or a stockpile of flesh nearby.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Seriously. This is not something that happens immediately. It scales up over time. A Nagaraja with a -1 penalty is doing ok. Then it gets to -2. -3. -4. -5. -6... by the time ALL their Physical Attributes and Abilities have been 100% negated by the dice penalty, they shouldn't be functional at all. They're also free to burn through their Blood Pool to counteract the penalty and regain mobility.

                      What did you think happened to Nagaraja when their Physical Attributes dropped to 0, when you were reading the Weakness that way? Would someone with Stamina and Dexterity of 0 be able to walk and perform daily tasks?


                      I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Telgar View Post
                        What did you think happened to Nagaraja when their Physical Attributes dropped to 0, when you were reading the Weakness that way? Would someone with Stamina and Dexterity of 0 be able to walk and perform daily tasks?
                        I was unsure. Given one of my original questions was specifically "Does the Nagaraja weakness cause them to bottom out at 1 on all physical attributes, or do they start to hit zeroes and go into torpor?"
                        I would think having zero Stamina and/or Dexterity would result in lack of movement. But I thought different of the situation after the distinction of wording was made. I don't think much more ground will be covered discussing the specifics of this aspect further, personally. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, though.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I'd like feedback on a home-brew weakness for the Nagaraja that would make them playable characters, while still being horrific cannibals.

                          Vampires are unchanging beings, trapped in stasis and slow to adapt to new situations.

                          Nagaraja, filled with the energies of death and the permanence of the grave, find their un-lives even more static than most.

                          The storyteller should keep track of the number of experience points the Nagaraja's player spends. For every tenth point allocated, the Nagaraja is afflicted with a gnawing hunger for human flesh.

                          The Nagaraja must consume a full human body, butchered into edible portions, before they may gain the benefit of that tenth experience point.

                          The Nagaraja need not sacrifice the human by their own hands; indeed, it is some small comfort to the cannibals that the corpse of someone dead in a random mishap will do.

                          They are no more capable of eating food than other Kindred, of course, so this meal always ends in vomiting up a ruined mess.

                          Some very traditional Nagaraja believe they need to feast on a victim in some way associated with the abilities they seek to attain. So, if one sought to increase Appearance, a fashion model would be in order, or a veterinarian to increase Animal Ken. This is not truly necessary, but superstitions die hard among the Damned.

                          Perhaps as an adaptation to their peculiar appetites, upon the embrace Nagaraja teeth multiply and sharpen into multiple rows of small, shark-like fangs. This is too small a defect to incur a mechanical bonus or penalty, but often makes mortals suspicious of the toothy predators who lurk among them.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            This is indeed good for making them PCs; most importantly, it gives them a shot at being humanistic since they can just choose not to kill people. The standard iteration of being Nagaraja practically guarantees becoming a path follower, since regular cannibalism I would rate as taking somebody to Humanity 1, a la Texas Chainsaw.

                            However, this also changes them from being freakish and despised loners to an Auspex-Dominate-Necromancy bloodline that is essentially more potent than the Giovanni, with a far less debilitating weakness. It would change the setting to retool the weakness. Personally, I like the horrific necromancer concept better, as with Pisha in Bloodlines.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Niche bloodlines are niche for a reason. Samedi aren't very playable in most games, because they're rotting zombies. Kiasyd are (depending on edition) blue elves, also not very playable. Harbingers of Skulls are.. also zombies, but less rotten, and far more stupid. Blood Brothers are identical NeoNazi septuplets. Salubri have three eyes. And Nagaraja are cannibals. They're not designed to be able to exist in any game, and allow a wide variety of character types to thrive. Pretty much only six Clans are designed for that. This has always been an issue in VtM, but with the bloodlines.. well, it's more of a feature than a bug.


                              I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                On a constructive note.
                                Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                                I'd like feedback on a home-brew weakness for the Nagaraja that would make them playable characters, while still being horrific cannibals.
                                I like it, generally. Though, it might be too permissive. Obtaining a body to eat, in and of itself, isn't necessarily a daunting task each ten HP. I tend to think weaknesses are better served when they can actually come up as a problem to a reasonable degree. Which, for someone with Dominate, this possibly won't. But it still seems better. I was considering a night by night stacking frenzy penalty of some sort might also work.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X